USAC Racing Forum

I would like to hear from someone either WITH QMA or someone who LOVES QMA to tell me what is wrong with USAC. There are definitely some very opinionated QMA members who will never go USAC and I'd like to understand their reasoning. We are currently QMA members, however we are contemplating changing to USAC. It appears that USAC will save us money because of the spec tire. While I agree and understand that no sanctioning body is perfect, what I can't understand is if USAC will save their members money with a spec tire, what does QMA do for their members????? So.....someone out there explain to me, if I have the choice for either staying QMA or changing to USAC, why would I or should I stay with QMA???? I can't seem to find anyone who will speak up and say what is WRONG with USAC???????

why not run both? the only problem i see with usac is it was the first year for them. what i would call a work in progress. problems included racing procedures and such. mainly was experienced qm racers adapting to how usac runs races. there was problems with not enough cars finishing races because of the strike system and it was changed. its hard to point out anything seriously wrong because the people can voice opinions and they will run races how the racers feel they should be ran. we had the choice to vote at our clubs on a spec tire and it was submitted to usac and we got it. we did that in qma and it was tabled. thats a perfect example!

I'm a 7 year QMA member and am still evaluating USAC vs QMA. Currently I have nothing really negative to say about either organization. I have never run a USAC event however am considering it this season. I have run 8 QMA Grands events and assisted in officiating some of them. I have held local club positions and love my QMA club (Oaklane). I have run 2 kids at over 15 QMA tracks and Columbus indoors and just flat out love racin'! My older daughter is now running micro's. With all that being said, I consider myself a level headed guy, off the track  :) who is just looking for great racing opportunities for my kids.

Now some of the major topics: Spec tire - I Still do not understand how a spec tire really saves money because if you are looking to be as fast as possible you will put new shoes on every chance you can, be it VEGA, Hoosier, Firestones or yes even Goodyears in NASCAR! By the way QMA does allow local clubs to have a spec tire rule and some have tried it in points series racing. I race several local clubs with Vega fastest at one and Firestones fastest at another.

Engine platforms: Both have too many engine platforms(and classes) and should look to lower the number of engine platforms by less engines and more restrictors to the engines (Like an animal or Honda 200) that can be changed as the kids grow and want more speed. BTW I run Hondas and Deco's.

Judging: I raced enough (quartermidgets & micros) with and without judging to know that the only real racing is to race without judges(QMA) or a strike system(USAC). I've always said that volunteer parent judging is like playing little league baseball with a husband/wife volunteer crew rotating each inning to umpire the bases and balls/strikes, I would pull my kid from that league in a heartbeat. Judging should be the same in all racing, go dead on the track and go to the back, if a group of officials feel you caused the wreck in a deliberate or flagrant manner and did not go dead you are going to the back with all the wrecked cares.

All that being said I believe there is room for more than one quartermidget sanctioning body as we are still way behind all other forms of youth racing. Competition is good and hopefully this will help grow our best kept secret. We must ALL be careful that we do not run each other into the ground as this is still all about the kids and not us parents.

My hope is that the future holds some opportunity for both leagues to come together in an open  yearly championship that will allow the best from both QMA & USAC to compete like World of Outlaws & PA Posse. My fear is if we are not careful we may become more like IRL and Kart which was not a good thing for either league.

Happy racing to both QMA & USAC, enjoy the time with your kids because it will be over before you know it!

Just my opinion.
Sincerely, Tony Lofton
Lofton Family Racin'
Oaklane QMRC

I have only been in quarter midget racing for one year now. My son doesn't even know the difference in QMA and USAC. If you see him at a track, and you will see him all over the country this summer, ask him what he is doing. I bet his response is going to be, learning how to drive, making new friends, and having fun. The word winning will not even come out of his mouth. Take it, he is very competitive, but all he wants to do is race and have fun. Now, taking that into consideration, I go along with what Tony Lofton had to say about the kids. We the parents are their worse enemy. We go out there and push and push them to the limit. Well, like any other sport, they will get burnt out and start to just hate it. The time we spend with our kids at the tracks should be some of the best memories, not screaming at them because they made a small mistake, let them have fun and if you do this, they will bond to you better than if you are screaming at them.
As for USAC and QMA, we are going to run both of them and just have fun. I see no reason to down grade either organization as they are giving us the opportunity to spend some of the most valuable time with our children and make memories that nobody can take away.
The world is not perfect and no racing organization is going to be either. Run both and make your own opinion but in the end, it is still racing.

Thanks,

<Now some of the major topics: Spec tire - I Still do not understand how a spec tire really saves money because if you are looking to be as fast as possible you will put new shoes on every chance you can, be it VEGA, Hoosier, Firestones or yes even Goodyears in NASCAR! By the way QMA does allow local clubs to have a spec tire rule and some have tried it in points series racing. I race several local clubs with Vega fastest at one and Firestones fastest at another.>

Not true with the Hoosier. While there were some tracks where that was the case, flat abrasive ones, for the most part used tires were faster than new and we won races on tires that had up to 4 races on them. Considering I am talking about Hvy. AA and Hvy. WF that's saying something. The Hoosiers saved us a couple of thousand dollars over the Vegas we ran last year.

Thanks Mike as I remember those early days of racin with my 5 year old boy. We have a sayin at Oaklane "Go Hug Your Kids".

Hey Swartz. Some of my fastest tires were 2 race flipped Vegas and I have gotten 5 races out of a right side set of Vegas. I will run any tire that makes us fast and holds up over time. We are planning on testing some Hoosier this year. But you said it yourself "flat abrasive tracks" wore tires out faster. No Kiddin' That is true in any racin.....so is it the tire or the track. Spec a hard that will wear slower but you go slower than a soft tire that wears faster and goes faster.

So what you are saying is you saved a couple thousand on running harder, slower tires on a $10,000 AA engine/chassis class?

but if everyone is running the same brand of tires, what does it matter if you're going faster or slower? If there isn't a spec tire, you're not comparing apples to apples. We were able to get 2 races out of Vegas last year and have Hoosiers in our trailer that have been raced at least 4 times that don't even look like they've been run at all. When Vega changed whatever they changed last year we had to spend extra $$ to have them cut. If not, the people who had old Vegas were 3/10 - 4/10 faster.

 Not bustin your balls Tony I appreciate your input....BUT

"By the way QMA does allow local clubs to have a spec tire rule and some have tried it in points series racing."

2008 National Short Sheet

RCP# 12
Do not implement the spec tire rule. Effective Immediately. No spec. tire implementation is allowed in any Region.

does Vega give kick backs????

If you listen to the audio on the NCQMRA website from the Dec. meeting with QMA you can clearly hear the QMA representative telling the group that Vega is giving QMA  kickbacks. I don't know of anyone else giving any.

I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but that audio is really informative and those members asked really good questions and made some great points.

You miss my point. If I were going to pick a spec tire it would be a firestone with a manditory D50 reading at the scales. A common tire that is cheap and easy to buy. Saying that the ability of the kids is no more important than the ability of their parents to spend money just takes away from the sport. Name me ONE national sanctioning body that does NOT require a spec tire. I look forward to our basketball game tonight that has nothing to do with the parents deciding how big the ball will be or how hard it will be in order to give their little Michael Jordan an advantage. I was also pleased to see the results of the the Tulsa Shootout. A whole lot of former QM drivers with great efforts in a lot of classes  that use  spec tires to level the playing field.
Myron Swartz

Phil, I appreciate your input and my understanding is that was a regional issue, not a club level issue. If you read QMA by-laws, local clubs can make alot of their own decisions. Some clubs have done it for points series that you must run spec tire to compete.

Scott & Slowpoke, I did listen to the audio and it was informative. But I think you missunderstood the Vega kickback info. It was discussed when QMA was reviewing spec tires, but never took place......so my understanding is Vega has not and is not kicking back anything to QMA. However they were nice enough to supply gift certificates and tires for center pieces to our club banquet as a donation.

Swartz, I hear ya and have no problem running a spec tire as it will make us handlers step up our game instead of just throwing tires at the car. QMA is still reviewing spec tires as an option.

Everyone, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss racin' with all of you racers! All I know is QMA has been around for 50+ years providing an awesome racing opportunity for families all accross the country. I agree that at times it seems we are being over governed and we are trying ot change that.

But it seems that USAC is just providing a points series (Generation Next) and your local weekly show is just that , your independent local weekly show. I appreciate that USAC is now stepping up and providing an alterative to QMA, this is what makes capitalism great! We just need to be careful that we do not become IRL vs Kart and harm the sport.

God Bless and Safe Racin!
Tony Lofton

I also race with Mike Smith son, I do agree we put to much effort into racing with our children. Many try to live through them. I myself have tried to learn to pull back with my son. With a newer car this year he has started to now start passing. I found out to tell him  to go out and do the best he can do and no pressure. Sounds crazy but he did the best driving his last few races with me telling him that. I do not want him to think that its not any fun.
I do like the tire rule and it will save many alot of money. throw Hoosier stickers on the cars and it will not do any good. We actually ran Hoosiers A35 last three races and we were right there with Vega tires or quicker . My driver just needs to be a little more agressive which he has started to do. I do like the 2 person judging and this will make the day go by quicker( we have problems of getting people to judge sometimes)
My opinion if it matters.

<Everyone, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss racin' with all of you racers! All I know is QMA has been around for 50+ years providing an awesome racing opportunity for families all accross the country. I agree that at times it seems we are being over governed and we are trying ot change that.
God Bless and Safe Racin!
Tony Lofton
[/quote]

Glad you get the chance to chime in. Just like the QMA open..... forum..........oh, wait........ Looks like you guys have a LOT to fix.
Myron

Myron, why so bitter? Most of your posts have a negative tint to them, who and how did you get hurt in racing? I agree QMA has things to work on, just like any 50 year organization that is growing, changing and trying to move towards the future. USAC has been in .25 midgets for 1 year now, so I am sure the future will bring lots of challenges that I hope they get right as they grow over the next 50 years.

My understanding of why the QMA forum got closed and changed is because some disgruntled parents were bad mouthing kids and it had to be stopped. Was it the right thing to do or over governing. I don't know and I don't control it so I move on and learn to deal with it and not be so bitter about it. :-)

I'm not bitter. I enjoyed driving race cars for over 25 years and now I get to see my son do it. As far as being hurt, well I do have that ankle thing. After doing QMA for six years I saw enough to know that there is no movement to the future. It's all about maintaining the status qou and the select few retaining power in order to profit from it. You dissagree? Fine. Post the names of the tech committee that has no responsibility to anone other than the national tech director, and none the less makes the rules, right here. I'm sure everyone would be happy to know who has imput into the "clarifications". Beyond that, we met a lot of great people in quarter midget racing and look forward to seeing them as we move on.
Myron

Myron,

Your attitude and tone is what is wrong with both programs.  I wil likely get out of the sport because I do not want my children to be exposed to people that feel they must denograte others or talk down to others to make a point.  The conversation prior to your weigh in was interesting.  But I will no longer expose my children to people like you.

I'm sorry you don't like my attitude. I try to help anyone I can any way I can. If anyone asks me a question I can answer I will. If holding people in authority responsible for their actions seems detrimental to you, hang on. There is a great big world out there that's really scary. If you like, there is a "report to moderator" button on here. If they want me to shut I will. Got a lot of other stuff to do.
Myron

Hey Myron, great points about tech and the power structure of QMA but in life you can choose to hang around and work to fix the problems or you can move on and have no other input about the problems. I don't disagree with everything you state but USAC has a track record too(not in .25) and it ain't perfect. All racing organizations are growing,changing, breathing, troubled groups of people run by people, so none will every be perfect. All these racing groups are just microcisms of the real world and we must teach our kids from these racing experiences or any other sports they may play.

I agree with you 100%. What people need to learn to do is ask questions. Even if they are hard ones. Right now the quarter midget community has a huge issue with the Honda engines. After seeing garages full of small port Bs, unported stocks and mods, tier 2 hondas, I think the process for changes needs to be evaluated but the attitude of the memberships, for the most part, seems to be play along to get along. As far as USAC goes, I havn't agreed with everything they have done but those were all in the moment kind of problems and were resolved on the spot. On that note, I used to take guff for asking racetracks for proof of insurance. No insuance, I don't unload. Had a friend that thought that was silly untill he got his arm fractured in multiple places, missed 6 months of work, got thousands of dollars in medical bills before he found out the promoter didn't have any insurance after all. Ya gotta ask.
Myron

Thank you for the input on insurance.  I would assume any track with a charter, would have it, but your are right, you should always ask.

As for the Hondas, I am not sure I see the issue.  For me after less than 2 yrs -- I see the Hondas as being fairly well controlled.  Its not perfect, but nothing is.  I would be concerned if 1 motor is selected for all or even most.  Reasoning, the entry level cost could be prohbitive.  So there are two angles.  Personally, we would never have started if the initial motor would have cost over $1k.

So you can't just look at it from the cost impact after you enter, but will the cost be to high to attract people.

For the most part you don't have to be worried about insurance in QM racing at sanctioned tracks but what most people don't know is that the KK insurance is secodary to your own insurance. You have to submit to your insurance first an then KK will look at what is left. It also takes a loooooooong time. I was talking about the 3/8 and 1/4 mile bullrings we found ourselves at on Sat. nights, but, if you run any unsanctioned track you should ask.
As for the engines, back in the early 80's my brother and I both had kids QM age. He looked into them and I gotta say the sticker shock kept us out. Had their been a honda program then it might have been a different story. With honda changing their engines to keep up with increasing regs on emisions they seem to be going down a path that will make them unusable. What's the plan to replace them? Or, will they go the deco way and never die. Just get relly expensive?

There have been changes and I have seen the discussions over Animal.  I guess I don't see the issue with the Honda, I am not aware of any addtional changes coming, although, the demand for them is not driven by QM cars and I doubt that you would ever find a pure race engine in this size without spending over $1k each, maybe more towards $2k. 

The price is driven by volume, and the price for a Honda will be tough to beat for the Novice through 120, 160 classes. 

I see discussions regarding cost reductions, yet talking different engine programs would drive some out of the sport, due to the cost to switch, talk about Hondas laying around -- would look like graveyard after a change.   No easy answer to this one.

 Tony, I looked at the QMA bylaws and didnt see anything close about the clubs being able to make more of their own decisions.

 On the spec tire issue, 2 clubs in Region 4 requested running a spec tire for club events and were told NO by the NBOD, maybe its different in Region 2.

 The only club I know of running a spec tire in QMA is Minnesota, thats because they were doing it before the rule.

Swartz, Get off the computor and get that 600 ready  for next season.Ask the wife now if you can go to the tulsa shoot-out next year.It's awesome pay less to go there than the grands.All you do is race and don't have to worry about people running there mouth or stealing gas from a club.

P.s. don't have to pay for there 30,ooo dollar "meeting" either

Chuck,
Congrats to you guys for making the show. Trying to prep my spouse for the idea of going to places like the shootout. Went to the dirt grands a couple of years ago. Took a week to run 350 cars. Have any of these people been to the World 100?
To anyone who went to Tulsa, good job. Just being someplace like that is great.
Myron

Phil, I'm exploring it more but the QMA Bylaws state that it is "composed of seperate component clubs operating as local units". If this is true than local weekly shows are up to the clubs as far as format, spec tires, judging, etc. I agree that the NBOD MAY be over stepping its authority and if so I am looking to correct that issue. I understand that RCP's (Spec Tire,etc) are for sanctioned events only. Just like USAC is doing, every show is not a sanctioned event. I think in QMA the only sanctioned events are States and Grands and everything else is just a local club race.

Chuck & Myron, there is a great thread on microracing.com about the payouts in Tulsa being so little. My kids also run 270's and the Tulsa shootout looks awesome, except maybe the payout!

Uhhhh..........we have done a grands every year. Don't remember going to the pay window ever. I do know what it cost our club for trophies for one though.
I decided to expound on this. Anyone who drives 1300 miles to complain abut the payout needs to get a new hobby. Micros, mini sprints, quarter midget, stocks, mods, about 95% of racing is hobby racing. Do it if you love it. Don't if you don't. You are not going to make money at it. That's like saying you are pissed that there is no pay window for the bumper cars at King's Island. If you look at the money you would probably find that about 50% of the gate goes back in payout. Probably 30% to 50% goes to facility, staff, and stuff. Throw taxes an incedentals on top and the amount of real profit makes me wonder why anyone would go through the grief of having a show like that. Ya gotta love it. Especialy if you don't get the consesions. That's where the bucks are. Baltes always said if he had sold just one more hot dog........
I'm making generalizations here so if someone has real info to contradict me, please chime in.
Myron

Tony - interesting thought in concept.  If the clubs were really "operating as local units" why would each club be required to send their by-laws, racing rules, and weekly schedules to the NBOD for approval prior to receiving their QMA charter?  I certainly understand that you may not want the club by-laws to contradict something in the National by laws?  But why would you have to have your racing schedule and weekly racing rules approved?

Good luck!

Kim Mathias
Buckeye Quarter Midget Racing Association

 Tony,

 All Region 4 clubs had to submit along with their by-laws their club racing format that was processed and approved or denied by the NBOD before recieving their charter.

 2 clubs wanted spec tires another was a difference in judging.....ALL NO

 The Region board with backing from the NBOD attempted to take over a clubs voting process (due to a possible USAC vote)

 These clubs are now all USAC

I hope you can fix it Tony but its been tried many times before.          

Thanks Myron.It was awesome.Pay? Its all about the drill man trophy.50 dollars for 14th place.I was thinking today cost us around 2 grand to go to tulsa with hotel.Last grands went to cost 2 grand in vega tires not counting the parking,sign in fees.

P.S. tony L. you have Kim on this now you don't have a leg to stand on.Just ask D.Tanner she couldn't hold a candle to her.Go get him Kim.

I'm not saying I have all the answers and I think it is great that USAC is in .25 midgets. This is going to make QMA step up or shut up. I am a 7 year QMA die hard and do think that they better be careful as "over governing " is an issue. I am just trying to determine if QMA can dictate as much as they do. As I read the rule book and the by-laws there seems to be a contradiction and I am reviewing further and as Myron says "askin questions". I just don't understand all the venom & anger around the issue. I wish all the USAC folks the best but they have only been around 1 season in youth racing. I understand the honeymoon is really nice right now but what about down the road.

Please correct and educate me if I am wrong, but USAC runs a travelling show called "Generation Next" and maybe it comes to your local club or maybe it doesn't. After that what do they do for your weekly show or are you just an independent "outlaw" track sanctioned by USAC. I may try to find a way to run a USAC show this year after running weekly 100+ cars at my home track, Eastern & Western Grands, 2 other regional tracks in my area with points series and my daughters 270 micro.

I'm just in this to race and to quote the great racer Rodney King "Why can't we just all get along?" LOL!
 

QMA dictate's what they want when they want , the main reason reg 4 fell apart. And as for the USAC Traveling it's great, runs smoothly, and the ceramonies they put on for the winners exceed's anything qma has ever done in regionals  ;)

I believe the QMA structure is a good concept and in all probability worked well for many years. The conflict of interest of allowing individuals who make a living from quarter midget racing to hold key leadership roles in a nonprofit organization that governs it is very troubling to me. I sense that QMA is for profit – it’s just not the profit of QMA the organization but those who run it. When the membership takes back QMA I believe it may return to glory.

Tony,  By the way you talk I get the impression that you are a QMA insider. One of the silent voices that direct the course of QMA. Are you part of the solution… or part of the problem… be honest with yourself, are you partially responsible for the state of QMA today?

I am reasonably new to quarter midget racing and have attended both QMA Grands and a USAC National .25 event. USAC’s product was much better across the board. We have also attended both a QMA States Race and a USAC Gen Next event. USAC’s event was exactly that, a well run professional event. The QMA States race was a tension filled two days with lots of drama, mostly fighting and protesting of judging issues.

When I asked my drivers which series they would like to focus on in 2010, they instantly responded USAC! They felt the USAC Gen Next event was better than the QMA Grands.

I agree there is opportunity for both organizations and would like to see both take the sport to the next level. I fear that the thick politics in QMA will not allow it to recover quickly.

Tony I hope you are sincere in your resolve to fix the issues that have plagued QMA.

Live Strong -- I too am new to this sport with just a little over a year's experience. I see QMA in the same light. It appears to be managed by the "good ol' boy" concept whereas USAC appears to be run more like a business. While they are both non-profit organizations, someone somewhere is apparently making money because the decisions that are made in QMA are most definitely NOT for the members' benefit. But I guess they have to decide SOMETHING while they are on that $30,000 trip, don't they? While I understand the organization is 50+ years old, it is an example that older is not always smarter and now that the members are given a choice, maybe some changes will come. If not, I think over time there will be a shift in membership as more people realize QMA isn't the only game in town now.

Live Strong, I can guarantee you without a shadow of a doubt, I am not a "QMA insider or a silent voice that directs the course of QMA". If you knew me we would get a big laugh together about your statements.

I have NEVER run for a national position although I was the volunteer national head judge in 2008 hoping to make change for the better and that was an aweful experience! I was club VP for 1 year and ran for club pres twice and lost both, mostly because I want change for the better. I am our club Grands Chairman as we hope to get the Eastern Grands for 2011. I am all about working to make things better for the kids.

My kids and I love racing(QM's & Micros) and as I stated before we are looking to run a USAC race if our schedule will allow it and see what it is like. I also stated that I think, just like on the track, competition off the track between QMA & USAC is a good thing. I just think all the bad mouthing from both sides is not neeeded and does nothing to make the sport better.

I may not be able to change anything or make a difference but I am putting another 90 day push together to try to make a difference at my club and on a national level. If there is no change than atleast I can tell myself I did all I can and then I am just another racer! I am always nothing but sincere and wish the best to both organizations as my kids already want their kids one day to race and I hope I can help my grandkids run QMA or USAC or both!

Why does Tony need to solve QMA's problems on the USAC forum?

TRUE....WELL SAID MYRON  ;)

quote "I just don't understand the venom & anger around the issue"

 Tony, QMA caused a huge riff in Region 4 and with most it can never be fixed.

Hey Phil, I am really sorry to hear that, but I have not seen that as an issue in region 2. Oaklane, Wall, Honeybrook all work together and have had no real issues. I really don't know what happened in region 4 but I heard about it as it was happening. If QMA caused or would not work to fix the problem that is wrong on their part. Again it is nice USAC came along and offered a choice for the disgruntled in region 4.

Myron, read the title of the thread and I did not start it. Just discussing "USAC vs QMA".

Well, I would say let's go to the QMA forum and discuss it since the discussion seems to be how to "fix" QMA but I'm not a member anymore and can't log on. You a USAC member Tony?

Tony, It’s not just Region 4. I just listened to the recording of the QMA meeting at NCQMA - www.ncqma.com

The QMA group clearly stated you must follow the RCP process and they cannot break the rules. They also stated that nothing new can be introduced from the floor at the national meeting. Given this and that you must follow “chain-of-command” which will lead you through two individuals who make a living from quarter midget racing – I’m thinking you’ll need 24 months to make any impact. I witnessed seventeen families barred from QMA after they stopped the QMA insiders “good ole boys” from taking over their club. The email strings and text messages were well documented and appalling.

Rich Tisone states that he is the one that changed the bylaws so to not allow newcomers to the sport to run for office. He appears very proud of this accomplishment and states it will be further restricted in 2010. Rich is also the one that restricted the QMA forum. What process was followed here? Why was this done? What member’s voices were heard?

From this same recording I found it curious that Rich Tisone states that the rules are the rules relevant to the RCP process then later encourages breaking the rules pertaining to arrive-and-drives, which could lead to very serious consequences with insurance if someone were injured.

Rich Tisone stated that the reason they got involved with the tire issue at NCQMA was because Tad Fiser called them while at a NCQMA event where he and his teams were getting beat. National showed up the next day and confiscated tires without following QMA procedures, three months later DQ’ed drivers and never published information on who, why, what or how. Club officers stated they asked QMA for help but they were ignored, but when Tad called from their event QMA showed up the next day??... Tisone later claims QMA spent $13,000 to help NCQMA, impression is QMA spent $13,000 to help Tad Fiser. Tad is a Regional Director and the Head RD. He makes a living from quarter midget racing.

Do you see how troubling this is? How can anyone trust exposing your children to QMA in its current state?

Throw in the towel, Tony!!

 You bring up a very interesting point Live Strong.

Rich Tisone states that QMA spent $13,000 on tire testing for North Carolina.

Funny I cant find it listed anywhere in the financials of QMA for the past year.

HMMMM!!

Didn't follow procedures, no results to members, done in secret, no finance trail

Double HMMMM!

   

Did I understand them to say they spent $50,000 to shoot a comercial and $100,000 to have it aired?

Tony, you will run out of breath before you will have them understand the facts as you know them. I hope that Kevin will remove this thread soon because it is counter productive.
Mark Wilsdon
Proud member of both
QMA and USAC

At least, here, we can have the discussion. and since you brought it up, what are the facts. As you know them.

 Whats wrong with the discussion Mark? No name callin', No threats, No lies, just information being shared.

 Cant argue with facts.

 I'm sure Mark you have chimed in to get people jazzed up, post a bunch of hateful crap so Kevin will shut this down.

 Your QMA forum may be helpful to you.

Just ignore the negative feed back from these guys and lets concentrate on making USAC better. The better will bring in all the new drivers that want a great organization. Don't reply and they will eventually go away.

Thanks,
Mike

I've said nothing negative about either organization and again state I think having both can ulimately make them both stronger as long as we do not become IRL vs Kart. Piss and vinegar, venom and anger, he said, she said, etc! I hope to race USAC .25 at some point but am a QMA member and have been for going on 8 years. Oh well as per miketsmith's statements and Myron's wishes......I will just go away unless I decide to join USAC and then maybe I will feel welcomed in a public open forum.

hey Mark W, I am just trying to understand the title of this thread "USAC vs QMA". See you at the Grands!

Live Strong -- I agree with everything you said.  That was exactly my interpretation and I provided that feedback.  That board members should have NO affiliation with manufacturers/builders.  Meaning that if you are on a board, and you supply products to that industry and can profit from board decisions, there is a conflict of interest.  I would think that any member, if they desired, and had the resources could challenge that legally.

I also see issues with an inability for the membership to have a say in the board structure.  So voting in the board has both advantages and disadvantages, as does an employee position.

My biggest concern over the life of 2 organizations, is how do we maintain parity so that we can run both long term.  I can see where the two could diverge in the future.  That would be a significant deterrent to running both series.

I share the same concerns.  The split of CART and IRL didn't help the open wheel racing community at all and really gave stock car racing the shot in the arm it needed...

I think both organizations owe it to their membership to do all they can to make sure people that need to run both series to get their kids the seat time they need to keep moving forward can do so at a reasonable cost.  If it gets to the point that we need two completely separate cars to run in Tampa and New Smyrna because the rules are so different, we would probably sell everything QM related and just go Bandolero or Mini-Cup racing (that is about our only other option for kids in our area).

Tony, I never said go away. As a matter of fact I said at least we can have the discussion here. I just don't understand how pointing out the obvious is negative. BTW, when I asked about the money for the TV ad that was a real question. Takes a lot of stones to hang out that kind of cash with no gaurante of results. At least someone tried but was the membership aware? First I heard of it. Personaly I liked the live webcasts this summer. Created a lot of buzz.

I am as close to Tampa and New Smyrna as I am to MAQMA but choose MAQMA because my son loves it there. To come to New Smyrna, which is QMA, I now would have to change everything, which we are going to do anyhow to run both organizations. I too hope that some day both organizations will see eye to eye.

Thanks,
Mike

I tink it's just as likely that QMA and USAC will go in different directions. I"M NOT BEING NEGATIVE! ( I feel better now) There were a lot of reasons the tracks that left QMA did so. QMA has kept it's heels dug into the past so it's just like when gramps did it. That has good points but the world has changed a lot. Whoever thought drifting would be a sport? I think, and I don't know, that the membership in USAC will be more proactive in updating engine platforms and stuff. The leadership is a lot more accessable to the membership (no COC for not following the chain of command, whatever that is depending on who you are. OK that was negative.) But realisticly, when you look at big events, everyone should be welcome and there should be parody. Like the Tulsa Shootout last weekend. They had over 1000 entries in a bunch of classes. They were from all over the country and run a lot of different sanctioning bodies and track rules but, when you get there, you play by their rules period. USAC allows one race without buying a membership and I saw some QMA members take advantage of that at the Indy Nationals. No problem. Just more racers. I wish QMA would allow for something like that for the grands. I missed that post where Tony said I was putting harder, slower tires on our $10,000 AA. Well we won two championships with it. Stayed right at the same lap times as the Vegas. Just spent half as much money on tires. That's the kind of change that can be good.  Any takers at $3500?

Since when is constructive criticism counter productive? Been through something similar in my neck of the woods and it has me so burnt out on qm racing I don't know how likely we are to even run this season.

I have yet to see anything bad on the thread. You just don't like the opinions being expressed so you think they are bad. Instead of wishing it away, why don't you bring your side of the story, and if it's as right as you think, then everyone else probably will too.

  With that being said why the need for a spec tire? Those that want to save money can bolt on
Hoosiers which time and time again as been stated as being durable and as fast if not faster than Vegas. Those who have the need to spend can bolt on Vegas. That being a choice made by me not for me. Spec or no spec some will put on new rubber every raceday.

Obviously you were not at the grands in Topeka. The Vega tires showed up and they were .3 faster than anything else. There was a limited supply and they got really really expensive if you could get them at all. $300 a set in some cases. I talked to a Jr. Honda handler that had a tire bill over $2,000. In part because he brought tires that had worked well in the past and were now worthless. You don't want a spec tire? Fine. Make a rule that no tire can be run that is not pre approved and there must be a supply large enough to service everyone. No more sneak attacks. I think it's just easier to have a spec tire like the rest of the whole racing world where they figured this stuff out a couple of decades ago.

Swartz -- How would you know its the tire?  Could be set-up in general, could be a number of things to get the .3. 

Even if you put both types on the same car, the set-up may need to change to address the difference in the tire.  Air pressures, etc...

So to blame it on the tire seems kinda weak.

As for another comment I saw above.  If QMA and USAC get to far appart and if USAC changes engine formats etc... quickly as suggested for motor platforms, that would push allot of people to select one or the other or to quit all together. 

ezoner are you new? if you run qma how many people you know that dont consistently run a vega tire on the right side?

Quite simply because we also bolted on a set and picked up .3 with no other changes. It was not a small sampling. there were over 700 cars there and the difference was obvious. As far as engine platforms go, anyone still got their briggs flathead qma engines? Stuff changes. Ya know, I've said it before, There are over 100,000 soap box derby racers in America and they are affiliated with NASCAR. You couldn't even fill a football stadium if every qm racer in the country showed up. You want to keep pricing people (read: competition) out of the sport? Go ahead.

On tires,  the point would be that you may need different air pressures on the tire change, you may need other changes.  Just changing the tires just means that the car set-up needs to change or that the tires need to be scrubbed in before comparing or.... or....  It really not a good comparison.  Its just a data point.  I would bet that with sufficient time to practice and set-up you would get there.  I agree that if you think you just swap tires, your gonna see a difference.  You would on any car.  You would even see a difference to some extent between tire lots.  Would it be .3?  Probably not.  There is a % variance in the manufacturing process and compounds.  Its not exact.

Okey dokey, I'll try this just one more time.... We went to Topeka for a regular weekend previous to the grands. Practiced one day and raced the next. We were, if I remember right, 3rd fast qualifier, 3rd in our heat and won the A main. It was a full feild of cars and we were right on the track record. Went to the grands fully prepared and ready to race. Qualified decent but were in the C main. Led the first few laps by a strait. Once they got some heat in them the Vegas blew us away. It is not a single data point or just my opinion. You been racing long?

Yep bolt on them new tires and your fast even faster if their Vegas. Date back to 06 Sr. Honda TR in 6.60's before Vegas. Grands 07 with them new tires low 6.30's after the Grand's into the high .20's. In 08 we found the trick with a min. or so left in our warm up we would come in and bolt on new tires never on the track and no heat in them. Bam fast time learned a little more the next week.  Third week we got TR in the mid .20's. Had been accused of treating tires, illegal motor ect...  nope the first five laps of a Vega are the best. But that week a few did take note of what we did.  The next week a few others gave it a shot. By the last week of our season i think about seven gave it a shot and two TR were set. Now with a spec tire times are back in the low .40's. I know that inprovements in shocks has helped that but we did it on junk E-Bay ones. Spent all my $ on tires. I would think most TR have went down .4-.5 in the last three years. But i enjoy the saving of a spec tire.

Brian Leffel

If you like the idea of big time politics vega tires and thiland motors stay qma if you like spec tire that last longer less politics motors on a even playing field and a org that promotes its series and drivers that needs us as much as we need them go usac tires the front runners are still going to be your front runners no matter the tire what does it matter if the whole field slows down were there to win not just run fast a lot of times the fastest car doesn't win

Well said, phaster -- that's basically what it all boils down to!!

We set two track records with vegas - were always stickers, med ground

We've set one track record with Hooisers - they went through; [practice, heat race, feature win], [practice, practice, qualifying (track record), heat race, FLIPPED ON WHEEL - feature win], [practice, heat race, feature win], [used in shock testing practice], [used for centerpiece at banquet...]

From what I understand. That's how Nascar does it. There's not actually a spec tire per say, but making companies bring enough to supply every single team for the entire weekend makes it to where Goodyear is the only one who can afford to do it.

That's not the case with qm tires though. Every single tire in qm racing is a kart tire. Even the vega is actualy a spec dirt tire developed for karts. Quarter midget racing is a gnat on a frogs butt in terms of consumtion of tires compared to karts.

That isn't how NASCAR does it.  Goodyear is the exclusive tire supplier to NASCAR, so it is their spec tire.  No other tire company can show up to an event as long as they bring enough for everyone. http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?seriesId=2&id=2753420

There is no arguement of whether or not spec tires save money.  They do.  Yes teams with no funding issues will always bolt on new rubber every week, there is no getting around that.  However, if there is no spec tire rule and there are 20 different tires on the market, you will test all 20 if you want to be a front runner.  If the temperature is 50 degrees this week, but 90 next month you may run different tires, which means you have to own many different tires to be ready for every possible situation.  When you have a spec tire, you own one kind of tire and everyone else on the track does to.  It is very simple math, testing on one kind of tire and only having to buy one kind of tires saves money on tires and on track rentals for tire testing.  It is that simple.

Our track took the spec tire rule one step further and only allows Hoosier a40s on the right side and you must run the same set from heat to A-Main on raceday.  That also saves us more money because we only bought a few sets of a35s for use at the USAC District and National events.

Yes. They are the exclusive tire and sign a contract that states that much. But, because of possible antitrust cases, if there are other applicants then they have to allow them the chance to supply tires. Just watch, when Michelin has it's tire ready. There will be a lawsuit and it will end with both companies being allowed to supply tires with the stipulation they bring enough to supply every team, even if they don't sell to every team.

Actualy, that was the issue. NASCAR demanded that Hoosier take enough tires to every race to cover the field. Since only 7 or 8 cars, if I remember right, were running Hoosiers at the time and each track uses a different tire Hoosier was not in a finacial position to comply forcing them out.

To explain the history of the NASCAR competition.....

In 1988-1989 and 1994 there were two Suppliers in NASCAR. Hooiser and Goodyear both supplied tires for NASCAR. Because of the competition between the two the number of injuries increased because of a "win by any means" tactic both companies adopted during this time. With teams begging NASCAR for a solution NASCAR came up with the following. NASCAR still allowed both teams to bring tires but made it a rule they must bring enough tires for every team, knowing Hoosier could not afford to do this only having 10 or so teams it supplied tires to. This forced Hoosier out of the sport and left no one to contest the legality of a spec tire. That's why you see an exclusive tire contract now. But if this were contested it would go away.

Now this has nothing to do with QM racing. Just saying that that's how NASCAR really determines the tire.

But, Spec Tires in general are an antitrust slam dunk. If Vega were committed enough to a legal battle, you would see the Spec Tire go away. It's happening right now with Hoosier v. American Racer in UMP. You'll eventually see American Racer allowed into the series, or you will see them win a monetary award of 100+ million dollars. (Reading Swartz's post, I feel I need to note. This is if STA can prove they have an equal or superior tire.)

I am all for a Spec Tire. But this is just the truth. It could happened. Chances are slim, but it is possible.

COURT DISMISSES ANTI-TRUST SUIT AGAINST HOOSIER
 
   
(Lakeville, IN, September 24, 2009) Terrence F. McVerry, United States District Judge for the Western District of Pennsylvania, Tuesday September 15, granted a request for summary judgment on behalf of Hoosier Racing Tire Corp. and Dirt Motor Sports, Inc., d/b/a World Racing Group. In granting the request, the judge decreed the case closed. 
The court wrote in its decision, "... The summary judgment record demonstrates that the sanctioning bodies clearly want single tire rules, and that both Hoosier and STA compete to have their tires selected. Competition to become the exclusive supplier “is a vital form of rivalry, and often the most powerful one, which the antitrust laws encourage rather than suppress…” The court went on to say,”… STA has not suffered an “Antitrust Injury” and, thus, does not have standing to bring this action…” 

The suit was initiated against Hoosier by Race Tires America, a division of Specialty Tires of America (STA), manufacturer of American Racer tires, in September 2007. A month later, Dirt Motor Sports was named an additional defendant. STA has the right to appeal.

 

Sure someone can always sue someone else to try to change something, but right now there is a spec tire in NASCAR just like there is a spec tire in USAC.

There is a whole lot of speculation on why they went the way they did, one theory is money related and the other is safety related.  The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but not something anyone outside the France family will probably ever know for sure...

Looking at the quality of tire Goodyear provides, or lack there of, it's very obvious what the motivation was.

This is exactly what I don't want to see with USAC. I'd like to see detailed testing data of why they Spec the tire they do. I don't know how often they are going to revisit which tire to spec. But when they do, I would like to see them be open with what the testing results were. Using sets of other brands in practice. I do feel there is a more economical tire on the market. (I won't even go into which one.) I just feel it's USAC's job to prove me wrong on this.

That was one of the nice things about runnung USAC last year. There were Hoosier guys at every race we ran. Checking tires as they came off the track, talking to the handlers, taking notes. They were really nice to the drivers too. If there was problem it was addressed.
I'll guess Firestone

I would have to agree with that. Hoosier reps showed up frequently and were awesome to all the drivers. I would just like to see that continue into the future and if it doesn't see a serious consideration to switch the tire.

I'm all for Hoosier. The Hoosiers saved us a lot of money this year. But I know how tire companies are and when it's fresh they always seem to be great, but once they've been there for awhile they start to neglect their racers and ignore the problems they need to fix.

Plus I like to debate :D I got booted off a certain local forum for less "arguing" than this.

I swear to god we have this RR firestone that came used with one of the cars we bought and this thing has been through hell. Before one of our drivers was old enough to run at the track, she ran it on an abrasive parking lot with a blue plate everyday for two straight weeks and the thing still doesn't have cords showing.

I think with Hoosier it will be different. We are moving to the 600s and the spec tire is Hoosier. After that about all open wheel like Focus and Kenyon or the 600 uprights are Hoosier not to mention late model down the road. They have a vested intrest in establishing a strong relationship early and keep my credit card weeping.

yes it can be ''just tires'' july of 08' before qualifing we ran 1 min on old tires  came in and thre on a new set of vegas, think we had 3-f/t in a row then track record, accused of doping tires. tires were inspected and durometer checked -ok , they were JUST new out of the wrapper tires with a little grinder scuff, NO other changes were made to the car. so yeah it can be blamed on the ''tires''  ::)

   As you move forward the reality of a Hoosier spec tire will set in. More inline with the Burns17
Statement.I've already been thru to the midgets and starting back in QM again.Once again I like a options

I still disagree on the tires only statements.  Maybe your not saying it, but what I hear is you only changed the tires and with the same set-up, CG, etc... the Vegas ran better for that particular set-up. 

The question is -- was that really t he best you could do with the Hoosiers, was the driver consitenet, there are to many variables in my mind.  Maybe you are right, it just seems inconcievable to make that statement.  There are to many variables.

Also -- for guys that have ran them, what is the fall-off for the Vega.  After 50 laps the Hoosier picks up on the Vega and by 100 the vegas fall off so much that the Hoosier is better?  So in a longer race the Hoosiers would be faster.  Granted there are not many races ran that far.  Just a question.  Is the swing that fall off big enough.

Ok, now that I know what you don't know, the Vega debacle at Topeka was in 2006. Hoosier had not yet started making a QM tire.

    :o Where do I start?  OK, Not sure you! know what you! know. We ran Sacremento (W-Grands) in 04, west coast distributor had a trailer full of Hoosiers people were trying, my first time seeing them. We ran AA in-door winter 05 to 06 we were given a set of hoosiers to try for our first time on track in AA. We went to Wall NJ (2006 E-Grands). Vega was giving tires away half price just to try. We went to Nervo's 2006 Gasolene Alley Nationals. Vega was trying to get people to use them, some did.  We went to Topeka,(2006 W-Grands) went with 3 cars and DCS's and GF's. Vega was there in force. We ran the first practice and rumor started to fly how the vega was .2 faster. Thats "two tenths of a second" for you that live in RioLinda, LOL. We bought a couple of sets tried them made some adjustments to cars and ran them the rest of the week. We Qualified into B-main, A-main, and D-main (AA would not run in Qualifying). I never paid over $125.00 for a set of tires. I bought six sets of tires and came from the D-main to feature and went home with alot of good tires. The only person that spent anywhere near $2000,00 was a person we all know and love and he tried to buy up all he could find. Hoosier was nowhere to be found. The joke after Topeka was boy did Hoosier drop the ball. They had been working on a tire for I guess two years and Vega swooped in and in one season became the spec tire with out all the kickbacks going to any sanctioning body. 

Please try not to believe everything you hear here. some posters may not know thier history. I am not a proponent of spec anything if it involves some one in authority getting some advantage from the deal. As we all know it always does in the form of money.  Stay safe and think positive.

Yeah, I forgot about that initial development Hoosier was doing. My point still being that the Hoosiers were not there and nothing could touch the Vegas. I also did say tht the $2,000 included the Firestones bought in advance of the event for it.

Here is a copy of an e-mail I got Feb. 2007:

<IMO the lack of a spec tire at the Grands especially is a huge problem. Those in QMA that don’t travel to these events have no idea of the additional financial burden it places on teams that want to be competitive at these events. Case in point would be the last two Grands events held in Topeka . At the first event in I believe 2002 the tire to have was the YGF, if you could find one come A-main day they where going for $100 for a right rear. Fast forward to this years Grands and anyone who was there or knew someone that was there came stocked up with YGF’s.  In comes Vegas tires and totally blows away everything else and become a must have, right side sets going for as high as $250.00. What kind of insanity is that!  >

I was at Topeka in 2006 western grands and it was an interesting time as I came with some YGH's for my heavy cars and this was the first event I was aware of that VEGA became a QM player. Also never paid more than $120 for right side sets and my daugher made her first A main in Heavy 160. I do remember the day UPS showed up and opened the truck door and was packed with cases of Vegas that were more expensive due to overnight freight. Mark, If I remember correctly this was the birth of the QM Vega.

Here is another good one:

Titchener Bros. Racing would like to extend a big thanks to the new owners of GT American Racecars, Robby Gentry and Dean Moslow for helping us out so much at the Western Grands, and thanks also to Pete Jackson who also gave us a lot of help at the race.
 
We were a long way from home, and the tuning tips and parts they supplied (and even help pushing off our Mod) helped get all 3 of our cars running fast enough to have a strong chance to make the A main (only one did, but what the heck, that's the way it goes sometimes).
 
We didn't realize this until qualifying was over, but Robby even gave us his last personal set of the very hard to get Vega tires to qualify on, putting his own driver on a used set so we could go out on stickers.
 
I believe the combination of Robby's business experience and clear desire to always put the customer first combined with Dean's broad tuning experience with the GT cars is going to put GT on the top of the list of QM car builders.
 
Thanks again fellas-
 
Paul Titchener
Titchener Bros. Racing - TVQMA Reg. 10

ok i will simplify this for all the people scratching thier heads and wondering what the hell is going on here. if you run usac races you will have to run a spec hoosier tire. the tire performs well and last over several races. if you run qma and want to be competitive you will run a vega tire that also performs well but does not last. its no more difficult than that we have ran both and been competitive on both. if anyone tries to tell you different they are full of ----.

I would agree with that. 

Me too, 100%.

ssssmoke for President 2012!!!!!

very true, and agree with 100% as well  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Now wasn't that easy. THX sssmoke.

Thanks Smoke -- thats what I was trying to say, although I have no experience on the Hoosiers, my assumption is that you should be able to be competitve on both.  Set-up will be different, air pressure etc... and the feel to  the driver may change, but a good driver with the right setup should be fine.

My challenge is we have always run the 11.5 vega on the right rear.  The Hoosier will mean I will need to change raise the right side ride height and set the car up differently.   ??

could be, we never made tire changes that often. we adjust car to weather,track,etc. more than anything. good luck.

I would have to check notes later, but off the top of my head I want to say we run the Hoosier on a half inch wider wheel than the Vega and get the same tire size.  Again this is from memory, which seems to be getting worse every day, but I am pretty sure that is what we did to get the tire size the same.