USAC Racing Forum

General Chat => Point .25 => Topic started by: ssssmoke on October 13, 2009, 06:34:52 PM

Title: new honda
Post by: ssssmoke on October 13, 2009, 06:34:52 PM
is the 120 also made in thia. ? is it going to be legal?

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: crew chief on October 13, 2009, 07:45:04 PM
I dont know about USAC but they are legal in QMA

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: ssssmoke on October 13, 2009, 09:57:41 PM
120 also or just 160?

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: ssssmoke on October 13, 2009, 09:59:13 PM
what other countries are the gx 160 made in?

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: crew chief on October 14, 2009, 08:10:23 AM
What i have heard only the 120 is made 

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: sfreitas20 on October 14, 2009, 12:02:03 PM
On the QMA site, they still have a bulletin that both the 120 and 160 from Taiwan are legal.  It will be interesting to see if they change that at some point.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: Swartz on October 14, 2009, 12:09:17 PM
How would anyone make any money off of making them illegal?

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: BARRY LANDAU on October 15, 2009, 09:59:08 AM
Hi guy’s, Myron you ask a great question, “How is someone going to make money off of this”….one word answer, “Briggs”. It has been rumor for over a year that Honda motors would be gone; this is a great way to insert the “Animal”. This new rule on Honda’s, I am sure will also mean that you will not be able to put any new parts on your Honda motors since they are all made now in Taiwan. The Honda motors that we have been using have a much better quality then competitor’s, this rumor that seems to be coming true is one of the reasons that I did not want to switch over to USAC.  This is not to say that USAC is not a great organization, but when you give up your rights to vote and the organization have affiliations such as USAC and Brigg’s then this stuff is going to take place. It is also my opinion only that before long you will see seats in every car and then an official chassy builder; I hope I am wrong by feel strongly that I am correct. I wish all of you good luck with this new rule and yes, QMA did deemed the new Honda’s, both 120 and 160 legal. 

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: Swartz on October 15, 2009, 10:22:26 AM
Barry, I'm going to print this out and put in on the pile in my shop that has Teir II 120 and 160 pistons, Teir II 160 heads, Nylon brake lines, "keyways", 120 flywheels, 2 year old seat belts, small valve Bs, Briggs flywheels, Briggs coils,............

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: sprintcar39 on October 15, 2009, 10:35:31 AM
Barry,   Did you get to vote to allow the new Honda 160 for use in QMA? Really?

How about the Honda 120?

And since QMA made it legal...have you been able to tech the new Honda 160 engine with an official QMA tech manual? Really? Did QMA send you a tech manual for the Honda 120?

The Honda 160 is not allowed in competition with USAC until more information can be gathered and tech procedures can be in place so that everyone is treated fairly.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: Swartz on October 15, 2009, 10:43:21 AM
Eric, As best I know there are at least 3 chassis builders on the USAC competition committee. Are they aware that they will have to fight a cage match to determine who will be the spec chassis builder?

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: Barr on October 15, 2009, 10:55:40 AM
 Didn't the club presidents vote on this?? It wasn't just told by USAC that we had to do it correct? I think it was a unanimous vote form what I was told.
  Barry,  If you don't run USAC why do you even post on here? I don't know you, nor do I wish to. It seems you try to stur up a lot of controversy, by posting on here. I know you have a voice and that you have a right to post on here. For the life of me I just don't get it! If you are so against USAC why do you care what goes on in this organazation?
Chad Barr

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: sprintcar39 on October 15, 2009, 11:16:04 AM
Barr,   Yes you are correct. The decision on the new Honda 160 came from the club presidents and others on the USAC .25 Competition Committee meeting. It was a unanimous decision. This engine may end up being legal for USAC competition. But the Committee agreed that until more information can be gathered and tech procedures put in place it was best for the entire membership right now.

Swartz,  There is no talk of a spec chassis.....or mandating seats for all classes in USAC .25 either. Just more rumors and falsifications to confuse the other group.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: Swartz on October 15, 2009, 12:03:06 PM
The sad thing is that he must beleive it's true. Otherwise it would be considered disseminating false and missleading information and everyone knows that's a COC resulting in suspension or bannishment for acts detrimental to quarter midget racing.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: Phil on October 15, 2009, 12:14:12 PM
  Well Berry, maybe you can answer how a QMA club tech is supposed to tech that new motor?

  The reason for QMA national to require all 120's to replace the flywheel so all old and new are the same. Am I not correct?

  With the new 160's the carb is smaller, the head, piston, rings, and crank from what I hear are all different along with other items.

  The precedence was set with the 120, how much money will it take now to make all 160's the same?

  Can you put a known QMA legal older 160 carb on the new motor Berry? Can you swap other parts? Will they fit? Where are the rules?  

  You want to complain about USAC and a new engine platform when one just got snuck in right under your nose with QMA.



Title: Re: new honda
Post by: Doug Adams on October 15, 2009, 12:40:04 PM
This Honda issue is why the Briggs LO206/Animal/WF platform makes sense to me long term for the broad majority of classes.  Not knocking the Honda, its a great engine, it is just built for a different customer base.  QMs are not a big part of Honda's world and they dont build them to suit for QM racing.

Using a race based platform from Briggs, with the right package of engine rules will create a more consistent, level playing field over a longer term.  I suspect it wont be perfect either.

If Honda had a motorports division tuned in to QMs it might be a different story.  Without that focus from Honda, we will always be in a constant state of flux with this platform, its just a commercial reality.  Its difficult to govern a "box stock" program when the contents of the box are always changing.  The cost/equal competition ideal is nice in theory but its not a practical reality.

My guess is you would see the number of classes shrink over time and the majority of the population would move to the Briggs platform classes with the cost and stability benefits winning people over.  At the top of the pile, you might still have a Deco AA for the big guns as the premier class, or some version of a modified Animal or a WF.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: RBurns17 on October 15, 2009, 01:42:35 PM
From what I understand the Briggs is going to have a box stock class in QMs. The Briggs engines have the same history of inconsistency as the honda engines. The only problem with the Briggs engine is that because they are used for so many applications, there is an extensive history of development to these engines. I could go drop $5,000 on work to an animal motor today. That's kind of ridiculous. I just really hope when they do roll this in as an official class the rules are well thought out and thorough or else it's going to get out of hand. Which is not what we need in the sport right now.

Additionally, with so many classes already, this is just going to further stretch the car counts in each class.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: Swartz on October 15, 2009, 02:16:37 PM
What Briggs engine are you talking about? The only ones I have seen discussed are the LO206/Animal/WF that are purpose built racing engines and have no other application. Don't need to constantly change to keep up with changing EPA regs like the industrial app engines. They are ready to race out of the box, cheap. Wer have really enjoyed our World Formula.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: RBurns17 on October 15, 2009, 08:23:16 PM
Race built or not, all motors mass produced have inconsistency. I don't have a problem with that. No matter what motor we use there's always going to be a problem with getting some motors that run faster than others. I just want to see USAC roll out a good thorough set of rules for the Animal motor when they make it an official class.

I think it's great. That's one of the things we were hoping for when we voted USAC. We had a go kart with an Animal motor on it, and I was very impressed with it. But, it ran in a box stock class and it was anything but.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: ssssmoke on October 15, 2009, 09:19:32 PM
it cost money to go fast, if its a rc car, boat, honda, deco, briggs, drag, big block, small block, 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, dirt, asphault, water, snow. it doesnt matter! it cost money to race and go fast! things improve every year and you must keep up with it or you will fall behind. and its not free.  oh i left out one of my favorites muddin!

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: RBurns17 on October 16, 2009, 04:53:12 PM
But when it's a stock class, it's not supposed to be outspending the competition. I think cost control is the #1 thing that's going to help bring in new members.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: sfreitas20 on October 16, 2009, 06:58:31 PM
I agree with that...I have no problem throwing money around later on, but at my son's age right now I would rather him learn to drive.  No better way to learn to drive then to be in a stock class so you have to learn to out drive the cars on the track, not just put your foot down and go by because your dad took out a mortgage on the house to build your engine. ;)

I look forward to AJ getting more seat time, so hopefully there will be a stock animal class for the younger kids.  If not, we will just wait until he can run in the 160s too.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: ssssmoke on October 16, 2009, 07:39:56 PM
stock animal is the same as your honda.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: RBurns17 on October 16, 2009, 10:02:25 PM
I'm a little confused on what you mean they are the same. I am assuming you're not talking about speed. Because a stock animal is much faster.

They're not the same. Not at all. Shop around for all the stock appearing parts you can get for a honda, and then for an animal. There has been extensive development done to performance parts for the animal motor because they are used in such a wide array of competitive applications.

You can go drop $3500 on work to an animal motor, which will double the horsepower, and it will pass all but the most stringent tech procedures. Can you do that with a Honda? No. I mean, there are some cheater parts out there, it's very hard to pick up a huge competitive advantage without it being noticed in tech procedures.

What I'm saying, is that USAC needs to really look at the animal and study how it's used in other series and research all of the development that has been done to them so they don't miss something in the rules that might let the outcome of the race be determined by who can spend the most. Winning should be about which driver is the best. Which team has put in the work to get their car figured out. Say what you want about needing money to go fast, but that's not how a stock program should be.

It's much easier to maintain a stock motor program with the Honda motor because they aren't used in fifty or more racing applications around the country. I just hope USAC is very thorough with the development of this class.

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: BARRY LANDAU on October 19, 2009, 09:54:20 AM
I need to apologize to USAC for a statement that I had made in my last post, I had always been under the understanding that as a member of a club in USAC that you are not allowed to vote on new rules or rule changes. I had said something to that effect, Mr. James Spink then email me and explain how the system really works………..seems very fair.  I thank Mr. Spink for taking the time over the weekend to help me understand something that was explained to me at the beginning of the .25 series wrong.
I would also like to point out to all that I was in NO way trashing USAC when I said this, it was TRULY a misunderstand. This info prior to Mr. Spink explanation was given to me by a USAC member who must not understand the rules himself. I refuse to act like some of you do on this site and trash any origination such as USAC, QMA or Outlaws because they all do so much for our kids today.
Again I am sorry for specking out of line on that matter.
Barry Landau
PS: Any  negative commits should be directed to me only, QMA had nothing to do with my statements and you should not TWIST it to that way. I will release my email to anyone !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: new honda
Post by: BuckeyeQMDad on October 20, 2009, 12:22:33 PM
Hey BL, Kudos for the Man-up.

You are correct in that all proponents of this sport USAC, QMA and Outlaw a like are good for the kids. It's us parents that alway seem to screw things up! Ever notice what the kids are doing 10 minutes after they wreck one another on track? Playing PS2, XBox, Football or something together.

See everyone at the Buckeye inddor Winternationals- mark your calendars. It's open to all, no sanctioning required.