USAC Racing Forum

General Chat => Point .25 => Topic started by: Doug Adams on June 08, 2009, 11:05:56 AM

Title: The Animal
Post by: Doug Adams on June 08, 2009, 11:05:56 AM
Any perspectives on the recent demonstrations of the engine platform?  Does it look viable for next year?  Pros and cons vs the Honda?  What might the tech specs look like?

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: Swartz on June 08, 2009, 01:42:58 PM
The thing I like most about the Briggs engines is that they can be repaired and maintained at a much lower cost. There is no cost efective way to repair or replace a block, for instance, on a Honda. You have to buy a whole engine. I don't know about the Animal engine but on our WF the valve springs last all year and on our 160 they lasted 1 day.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: goffin20 on June 08, 2009, 03:02:44 PM
One engine to start with and you can grow into and advance with will do nothing but save people money.  The animal can replace the 120, 160, stock & mod classes with restrictor plates. 

Then use the WF box stock to replace the B’s and a WF without limitations to replace the AA.  And yes, the WF can also run alcohol so we could call it a WFA.  ;-)

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: sprintcar39 on June 08, 2009, 03:46:54 PM
I do like what I have seen and heard about the Briggs Animal. Lots of potential for the future with this platform.

Personally I think it would be a HUGE mistake to not have the AA class in quarter midget racing. While the Briggs WF is a great engine it drives nothing like AA Deco engine. I know the argument is always about lap times....but the AA must be driven different than the WF and that is what makes it unique.

The AA class in Quarter Midget racing is like the Silver Crown division in USAC.


Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: Swartz on June 08, 2009, 04:15:17 PM
I like the AA class as well. Isn't realy anything to compare it to. The only problemm I have with it is that it is limited to the Deco engine. The best approach, I think, would be to make it open to any single cylinder engine with a max cc limit and 2 valves. There is that track in PA that runs the 5 horse mod class. Any engine. Anyone have info on that?

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: goffin20 on June 08, 2009, 04:37:00 PM
Im not talking about a box stock WF or a WF without a restrictor plate.  Im talking about a full blown WF, just like the AA's are built.  A full blown WF on alchy will be exactly like an AA, just much much more power.

May want to watch or test drive one before you count them out.  Plus, parts are much more available and the prices are not bad.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: Swartz on June 08, 2009, 04:45:00 PM
Why tinker with the WF? Our Hvy. WF was .15 faster than our Hvy. AA this weekend. Keep the money in your pocket. But, for the Half class? Go to town.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: goffin20 on June 08, 2009, 05:05:50 PM
I agree, but everyone's argument is throttle response which can be obtained with a WF if it’s tricked out like the AA's are.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: RBurns17 on June 08, 2009, 07:28:23 PM
The animal motors are awesome. Very cost effective also. Well, that is if you have a handle on tech procedures. It might just be me, but it seems like there are a ton of ways to squeeze extra HP out of the Animal without it failing in tech. That's when the cost gets out of control.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: sfreitas20 on June 08, 2009, 08:56:19 PM
"It might just be me, but it seems like there are a ton of ways to squeeze extra HP out of the Animal without it failing in tech. That's when the cost gets out of control." - This is my concern as well.  If the past history is any indication (and it generally is) a really good briggs engine will cost a small fortune, but I guess you could always just settle for an average engine.  I know that when my boy moves out of Rookie, we can get a great 120 for about $1000, but I have little faith that would still be the case if 1/4 midgets switched to Briggs engines.

Just my two cents worth...

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: goffin20 on June 08, 2009, 09:06:18 PM
Remember Scott, a lot can be gotten from a good driver and setup.  I have seen a few with box stock Honda motors smoke some high dollar power plants on many occasions.

Also seen some fast winning motors claimed and they still couldn’t get into victory lane with them.  ;-)

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: RBurns17 on June 08, 2009, 09:46:10 PM
I will say, we bought a go kart with an animal, and the previous owner swore it would dyno with double the HP of a box stock but it was almost impossible to catch. I believe him because he ran it in a box stock class with five different drivers, some of which many lbs overweight and it won every race with the different drivers by sizable margins. Too bad we sold that kart before I could ever race it.

I like to think that with the honda, we're kind of in an exclusive club, there hasn't been a terrible amount of development on cheater techniques and parts. Where as the animal is used in so many different applications and series that the amount of builders out there tweaking and building has made it a little easier to cheat.

If USAC has a good rules and tech plan than I am all for it. But I would like to see something thought out and developed. I would hate to see them rush it and mandate it during the offseason for next year. That would be a big risk with membership numbers. It's comforting to see USAC's track record with very big changes. It seems like they always give teams a years notice, which is what I would like to see here.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: goffin20 on June 08, 2009, 10:04:31 PM
Putting the claimer rule to use more often would stop those from spending so much on their motors.  I believe that was one of the intentions of the claimer rule in the first place, to keep everyone honest.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: clouse55 on June 08, 2009, 11:13:36 PM
 Just a few things

 The motors ran this last weekend are the animal local option 206 motor. It comes from Briggs factory sealed with a 6100 RPM limit coil. Currently the seals have to be broken to install the crank for the gearbox.

 This could open up a whole new option for racers. What probably like best is that this motor can be restricted for all different ages, experiance, and weights. What would be better than to purchase a motor you could start rookie with and run it clear through to a class that would be similar to heavy 160. And there would be nothing to keep the heavy from running slower than the lights as it is now. Would be a good way to keep the heavier, older drivers in the sport longer.   

 To also put to rest the rumor mill. This isnt a grand conspiracy to flush the Hondas down the toilet. Hondas will always have a place just like the deco's.

 By being pro-active and looking into affordable performance, my hat goes off to the Toledo club for taking a big step into the future of quarter midget racing.   

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: sfreitas20 on June 09, 2009, 12:11:24 AM
There is no doubt the driver is the most important part of it.

However I have seen it in other forms of racing where a really good briggs engine block goes for $3500 - $4000 instead of the stock price of well under $1000 because it was one of the good engines (either because it was cheated up or because it was just one of the good ones off the production line).

I get that Honda engines aren't made specifically for racing, but does that mean they aren't suitable for racing?  Most Saturday night special racing classes use engines that were designed for passenger cars, but are still suitable for racing engines with some modifications.

I think it is good they are looking at all the options, but someone really needs to do their homework before a change like this is mandated. 

Consider the initial cost to all the teams to sell their current engines (while the market is saturated with good engines because everyone is selling them) and then purchase all new engines.  It will take many years for most teams to realize any cost savings as a result of a change, if ever.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: RBurns17 on June 09, 2009, 03:31:27 AM
What are we looking at for box stock price? I used to see them for under $500 but now they're showing up $650. That's hard to eat when you can get a stock honda for under 4.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: Swartz on June 09, 2009, 09:21:59 AM
This debate was going on long before we got here and will not end any time soon. A post from Sat, 25 Jul 1998 08:57:39 -0700

[I think the cost of racing is going to dictate another class. Yup, I can
hear those Honda racers who have enjoyed reasonably inexpensive racing
demanding more faster racing at close to the same cost. I'll bet they are
also becoming, if not, are almost a majority in QMA. In the distant woods I
can hear the scream of the owners of expensive Deco, 'what about my
investment'. The cost of a competitive Deco is going to sent it the way of
the dinosaurs.

Money talks and often just says "Goodbye."

At 08:30 98-07-25 -0500, you wrote:
>Yes, We have pleanty of time for another class or two or three
>Donald Hendrix
>At 11:58 PM 7/24/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 98-07-24 22:46:20 EDT, you write:
>><< While I might be inclined to say I favor a Honda, I really wanted to keep
>> the issue more one of "is there sufficient time in the raceday for another
>> two or three races" (junior, Senior, and Heavy) and not a debate over the
>> specific motor.
>> Robert Kerr >>
>>Answer to your original question, YES There is always time for racing :)]

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: sprintcar39 on June 09, 2009, 10:10:28 AM
The handlers of Jr. Honda kids are really excited about this additional experimental class at the club. It gives them a second class to run to gain some seat time before moving on to the Sr. Honda class. They see the benefits that this platform brings to Quarter Midget racing and had no problem investing in this engine. It is much cheaper and easier for the new handlers than the deco stocker class. Not to mention the price of a stocker compared to the animal.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: Doug Adams on October 13, 2009, 10:57:11 AM
Will there be an Animal plate for novice next year?  Would really like to get our next in line started on this platform.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: sfreitas20 on October 13, 2009, 12:09:08 PM
I completely agree with Eric.  As a Jr. Honda handler the idea of getting AJ more seat time by having him run in an animal class is something I am excited about.  Jr. Stock with a Deco is just not something that is in the budget for us and probably won't be for quite some time.

Any thoughts on when it might be made official that they are having an animal class next year?

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: Swartz on October 13, 2009, 12:25:11 PM
Why would you want a separate class? They are an overhead valve 4 stroke just like the honda. Seems to me you could match them up with the restrictor and run them together.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: sfreitas20 on October 13, 2009, 02:42:36 PM
More seat time in races for Jr. Honda aged kids at an affordable price.  My boy won't be able to race a 160 car until late in the year next season, but if we could start in an Animal class from the beginning that would be great.

My only concern regarding the Animal engine platform is that at one point Briggs wasn't known for cranking out consistent engines.  Hopefully they do now.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: LLR on October 13, 2009, 10:12:45 PM
just my 2 cents. 1-are they going to be able to run in novice?if so from what I'm getting throw your honda away.But wait don't do that because once your out of novice you can run them and also run 120. 2-were is the tech manual.Look how long it has taken the wf this the 3rd year and I can remember once they started talking about alot of people said they were going to buy one and that didn't happen.Last weekend there were 4 hvy and I think 7 lights. This is after 3 years.Don't get me wrong I think cost will go down compared to the decos but I think this needs to slow down and not get the cart in front of the horse. Just my 2 cents.

P.s. congrads to my bff cole thunder crandal on his win in novice. And also to Alex Siegal in sr. stock.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: ssssmoke on October 13, 2009, 11:52:44 PM
it always cost money to go fast, dont be fooled by this animal b.s., you really think an open animal that will "run with an AA" will cost less than a grand give me a break!!  and as far as the jr., sr.,lt.160 animal equivelant goes.dont buy into that either. you still must buy multiple engines to run each class. there are plenty of hondas out there cheap and fast and proven. i have bought 2 gx160 for a thousand dollars and have several feature wins and won points with them, and will continue to do so next year. there are to many classes out there now with 1 to 3 cars in them and thats what the animal will be also. LLR is right, there is rarely a field of ten wf's now 4 years down the road.  just my opinion

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: BuckeyeQMDad on October 14, 2009, 04:03:26 PM
LLR- Thx for the words- Thnder is still Beaming from last weekend. I just hope that now he will drive like that more consistantly instead of playing follow the leader with whatever car is in front of him.

I too would like to offer a BIG Congrat's to Alex for his win- he did a great job in that car and is getting better all the time.

Regarding the Animal, we've ran it a couple of times now (Nationals and last weekend) and and will be running it this weekend as well. From my point of view (a handler) mechanically it is like a Honda- (wiring, means and ease of starting, etc- it even has a choke for easier one person starting). From my drivers point of view it is very similar to a stocker.

I like the piece thus far and like the idea of an inexpense class that runs quicker than the Honda's. I just hope it is brought in "the right way" so as not to screw up a potentially good thing.

For those looking for more info on it- feel free to ask questions. I'm open to answering the best I can.

Stay tuned..... 


Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: ssssmoke on October 14, 2009, 04:49:36 PM
hope i can get them thunder stickers done by this weekend!! as far as the animal being faster than the hondas im not sure if thats where they are wanting to go with this. ive heard the new gx 160 was to fast so its been banned i cant imagine a faster animal would be where to go with this, as far as i know thus far. from what im hearing from the engine builders standpoint to make a animal run with a AA cost about the same. 5 to 6,ooo dollars.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: 2fast4u on October 14, 2009, 05:33:25 PM
The Animal is not going to take the place of the Hondas, they will give us a class to run on Sunday that is something us low budget families can do. The World Formulas is going to be our A motor at less than a .25 of the cost. We will be able to race two Hondas on Saturday and two Briggs on Sunday for less than one AA engine. Thats in our budget and everybody has different budgets.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: Barr on October 14, 2009, 08:08:05 PM
 The goKarts have been running these motors for years now. You can have a bad engine that will run with or beat an A motor for around the same cost as a Honda race ready motor. Not a box stock Honda. I had a friend just had an Animal motor built for karts in the open class tha dyno's at 18 horse for $1100.

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: LLR on October 14, 2009, 09:45:01 PM
Well I hope it is cheaper in the long run.I just think they need to so down and do it right.But like smoke said if its is faster than the honda why would you ban a new honda thats faster? I know a guy that builds kart motors here in columbus and he told me 5 years ago he wishes he could build one for lauren duo plug duo msd and about 27 horse only thing he uses is the block.Just like anything else in motor sports how fast do you want to go?

Title: Re: The Animal
Post by: Barr on October 14, 2009, 10:22:05 PM
The only reason the Honda is banned  It goes back to the teir 2 and 3 motors. untill they even out the motors , with a key or what ever they decide. They had to ban it untill they do some testing. My opinon is they are not worried about going faster but keeping the cost of having to buy a new motor just to keep up. If this motor is that awesome then everybody will go out and buy one, some families will have to buy two. So now what do they do with the old ones? That is $1100. that does not need to be spent if you already have a good 160 motor that is fast. But if this new motor is that much better, well now your old motor won't even be a midpack motor. Give them some time to work it out. They have showed us this season that they listen to there members