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Author Topic: Unlimited Engine  (Read 7819 times)
DonRacer
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« on: July 16, 2008, 05:38:44 PM »

Hi Everyone,

This is a copy of an E-Mail I sent to Mr. Miller and I would appreciate opinions from You on this subject.


Hi Kevin,
I would like to know if USAC has given any consideration to an open Engine-Fuel rule for sprint cars.
Myself and other's have conferred with several professional engine builders and they agree that with
an open rule the cost of engine's could be reduced as much as 50%, as long as you keep the current
tire rules.
This could have many benefits for USAC and non-wing sprint racing in general.

1. It puts the low budget creative guys back in the game.
2. Gets rid of the 305-360-410 fragmented mess that is sprint car racing today.
3. Sets sprint car racing apart from all other "Spec Engine Series Racing" like F-1,
    IRL, NASCAR, NHRA etc.
4. Increase's sponsorship opportunities from SEMA members, because a much
   wider variety of speed equipment would be used with an open rule.
5. Could very well be the "Hook" that gets the youth of today involved.

To be clear on what an open Engine-Fuel rule is;

1. Any Engine Displacement or Configuration
2. Any Fuel (Including Nitromethane and or Nitrous Oxide)
3. Any Aspiration



I would appreciate hearing your opinion on this.
Sincerely,
Don Flanders

Kevin's private response goes her ""

My Re:
The difference between non-wing and the outlaws is that in non-wing racing
we are overpowering the track with the horsepower we have now, ask any
top team.
  That's the reason its so much cheaper to build an unlimited engine is,
you are not really building unlimited horsepower, you only have to build about
what we currently have. Ask any top engine builder if this is true.
  So the unlimited engine is in reality two things, a publicity and marketing tool
that gives the public the illusion of unlimited horsepower racing and a cost cutting
tool that would help the sport grow Nation-wide.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 05:56:35 PM by DonRacer » Logged
DonRacer
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2008, 05:13:43 PM »

No one out there with some understanding of "Sprint Car Mechanics" has an opinion on this subject?
LOL
Don
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 05:17:04 PM by DonRacer » Logged
DonRacer
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2008, 04:11:42 PM »

Want to start an argument with a gearhead? Say that horsepower is more important than torque. Or that torque is more important than horsepower. The resulting fact-free emotionalism, random shouting, and absence of listening will be rivaled by little this side of "discussions" regarding Roe v. Wade. To paraphrase the great philosopher Jeff Foxworthy: "If you can argue about torque and horsepower for more than an hour, you might be a gearhead."

-Joe Hollingsworth / autoMedia.com
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Robinette
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2008, 11:46:21 AM »

I think it would be a great idea.
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racer28
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look out we are going to the front


« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2008, 11:37:39 PM »

i was thinking about getting into sprintcars. we are a focus team currently. knowing very little about the inner finance of sprint car racing i am having alittle trouble understanding what you mean. i think that if the rules allow and engine and any fuel you very quickly have a money race on your hands. and what are you going to do with nitrous on a oval track. i am by far not an engine expert however i think the air to fuel ratio of nitro methane is like 1.2 to 1 or something like that. so in a thirty lap feature you will use some crazy amount of fuel. and i don't think i would like to be next to a nitro fueled supercharged engine if they blow up anything close to a drag car. i didn't think sprint engines were all that much money, is there something i don't know about. do the current engines need to be rebuilt like every other race or something. what is the problem with the current engine. i would like to know before i get into this.
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DonRacer
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« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 10:53:54 AM »

" i didn't think sprint engines were all that much money."

 $40-50,000 for a competitive professional engine.

" i am by far not an engine expert however i think the air to fuel ratio of nitro methane is like 1.2 to 1 or something like that. so in a thirty lap feature you will use some crazy amount of fuel."

No one is going to run 85-90% Nitro like the Drag Racers, but x% could work very well with the right engine combination.

" i think that if the rules allow and engine and any fuel you very quickly have a money race on your hands"

As I said above, the reason its so much cheaper to build an unlimited engine is that you are not really building unlimited horsepower, you only have to build about what we currently have.

"what are you going to do with nitrous on a oval track"

It might be called the "Push-To-Pass" button.
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Robinette
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« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 11:57:50 AM »

And no engine in the world can run on straight nitro,  evin top fuel and funny cars use only about 90% nitro with of course 10% methenol.  And if i remember right back when they could run nirto in sprints i think they were using around 10 to 15% whitch is a big improvement in power.  So there is where the cost would actually be cut,  rather than have a 410ci engine like in your typical sprint, you could run evin a 350ci engine and still make the same power
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DonRacer
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« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 03:33:49 PM »

I like the way you think!!!

The two Victorville "Open Competition" races could have been the perfect "Unlimited Engine Proof of Concept" races, but the promoters
Wimped-Out on the  "Run What You Brung" concept.

First, they did not allow the common sprint car type battle bars, which turned-off quite a few teams

Second, "Nitrous Oxide, or any other similar additive injection, is not allowed" and "Fuel is restricted to straight methanol with a maximum specific gravity of .820 at 60 degrees Fahrenheit. VP-M5 for 0-360ci cast iron block"

The official reason was "concern with the nitro and nitrous is lack of knowledge within the sprint community."

They did allow any size or type automotive engine and any type of aspiration which no one took them up on.

Who Knows? Maybe they will change their minds and open-up for the Fall Race.
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sprinter25
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2008, 01:10:09 PM »

With nitro running $1500 to $1800 a 40 gallon barrel(which I saw on an NHRA race on ESPN), I fail to see any real cost savings here. The lower dollar teams may buy it once, but their limited knowledge of its use would likely kill their engines. And where is the cost saving in that....

People race 305's and 360's becasue that's what they can afford.........
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DonRacer
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2008, 03:01:08 PM »

"With nitro running $1500 to $1800 a 40 gallon barrel(which I saw on an NHRA race on ESPN), I fail to see any real cost savings here.".

Its not $45.00 a gallon its more like $25.00 a gallon, run 10% and its $2.50 a gallon for racing, probably $50-75 for a night of racing.

"The lower dollar teams may buy it once, but their limited knowledge of its use would likely kill their engines."

Sounds like it would be a great opportunity for someone to open a Fuel Management School...

Nitro is not the only way to go with an Unlimited Engine, your forgetting about Big Inches, Head Configurations, Turbos, ETC.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 03:11:50 PM by DonRacer » Logged
sprinter25
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2008, 05:25:47 PM »

And did you know that, according to Don Schumacher, and the Tom Compton of the NHRA, that almost ALL Nitro comes from China? And if you can buy it for $25.00/gal, you'd better buy all you can and resell it to the NHRA fuel classes.......and it's not 2.50/gallon when diluted with methanol - it's still at least $25.00/gallon. It just adds 2.50 to the cost per gallon of fuel that you run.

And like anything else, there are diminishing returns for anyone using nitro. Tip the can, blow up parts, buy more expensive and better parts, pay motor builder more money. tip the can, blow up some more parts.

It's just opening a Pandora's box...
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DonRacer
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2008, 06:16:01 PM »

"And like anything else, there are diminishing returns for anyone using nitro. Tip the can, blow up parts, buy more expensive and better parts, pay motor builder more money. tip the can, blow up some more parts."

I'd like to hear a known professional "ENGINE" Builder tell me that.

"It's just opening a Pandora's box..."

No, It's the key to bringing back creativity and ingenuity to the sport.

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sprinter25
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2008, 07:32:12 PM »

Sorry, but I can't see anything creative from the use of an expensive additive...Ingenuity and creativity? I'm all for it. But use of a volatile known compound, even at $25.00/gal, isn't ingenious in my book. It's just a way to get horsepower with known consequences....that's right, known...

They rebuild fuel motors after every run for a reason....and by allowing racers to tip the can, they'll always go over the edge....and where's the cost effectiveness in a broken motor, whether its caused by nitro or something else?

Ingenious? Nitro is hardly that...right now, it's just a quick way to get power without doing any of the really hard development work, IMO.

And you asked for opinions on this topic - it's obvious that we don't agree, so let's just leave it at that...
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 07:45:06 PM by sprinter25 » Logged
DonRacer
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 10:39:41 PM »

wimp     Audio Help   /wɪmp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wimp] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation Informal.
–noun 1. a weak, ineffectual, timid person. 
—Verb phrase2. wimp out, a. to be or act like a wimp. 
b. to show timidity or cowardice; chicken out. 
 

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sprinter25
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« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2008, 07:54:04 PM »

Keyboard bully - see DonRacer.....

baiter - see DonRacer

OK, let's try this....

STFU!!!!! Angry
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 07:55:43 PM by sprinter25 » Logged
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