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Author Topic: No Judging  (Read 9213 times)
dmo55ford
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« on: October 04, 2008, 11:30:16 AM »

The preliminary USAC rules show judging is optional at the club level.  The race director is in charge and makes all race decisions at the track.  Now I know judging is an emotional subject for many of you, but I believe the chopping, racing room and blocking rules provide a safer race for the younger drivers.  Especially when you get into the agressive Jr. Honda and Senior Honda classes.  Are we looking at the potential for more crashes with the letem race approach?

D
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goffin20
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2008, 07:48:30 PM »

In the event of an accident, would both cars automatically go to the tail?  If so, that should keep them clean knowing that they are going to the tail regardless of who was at fault.  No more rolling the dice and hoping the call goes their way...
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tarpondawg
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2008, 07:53:49 PM »

Now, Now.......aren't you tired of calls? If those involved go to the back no matter who's fault......in the end it will create cleaner driving. I would rather go to the back under those circumstances than to have a bad call!
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goffin20
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2008, 12:00:14 AM »

Which is exactly what Im saying, it will keep them cleaner.
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tarpondawg
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2008, 02:50:00 PM »

goffin20, we must have been typing at the same time or close to it.......wasn't refering to your comments. I agree with ya.......it would provide cleaner driving. You would no longer have a 50/50 chance of having the call go for you.
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miller
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2008, 08:11:55 PM »

I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH JUDGING. THERE ARE KIDS WHO WILL SPIN THE KID OUT IN FRONT OF THEM AND THEY DONOT SPIN OUT AND THE RACE DIRECTOR DOES NOT SEE THEM THEN HE DOES NOT GO TO THE BACK. THIS IS NOT NASCAR WITH THE TYPE OF BLOCKING LIKE BUSCH. I FEEL JUDGING HELPS TEACH KIDS HOW TO RACE CLEAN AND NOT DIRTY. BECOUSE  THERE ARE PARENTS WHO WILL TEACH THER KIDS TO RACE DIRTY AND WE ALL KNOW IT EVAN THOUGH WE WONT TEACH THEM BAD THINGS LIKE THAT. WHY DO YOU THINK QMA CAME UP WITH JUDGING TO BEGIN WITH. I LOOK AT KIDS RACING SHOULD BE FUN AND LEARNING.
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jwissmiller
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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2008, 08:40:37 PM »

The  current problem with judging, in my opinion, is that many people don't understand the way calls are supposed to be made. Too many times calls are made when there should be no call because the driver was not 100% at fault. I agree that if a driver knows he risks being tore up or going to the back he/she will drive cleaner. All of that being said, I like the idea of canning judging.
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Justin
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« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2008, 12:32:05 AM »

The  current problem with judging, in my opinion, is that many people don't understand the way calls are supposed to be made. Too many times calls are made when there should be no call because the driver was not 100% at fault. I agree that if a driver knows he risks being tore up or going to the back he/she will drive cleaner. All of that being said, I like the idea of canning judging.
if i only had time to disagree with you i would!! i dont have the time now but you are wrong canning it would be a bad decision for everyone and i see USAC keeping some sort of judging.
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To race is to win. To get 1st is to succeed! To succeed to to make dreams come true!
goffin20
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« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2008, 12:22:16 PM »

As Harmon mentioned on the other post, "(1) flagman, (1) race director and (1) judge/corner worker that will oversee the entire race program. They can have a qualified relief if properly scheduled and available."

I think that would be perfect!
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grandma13
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« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2008, 02:56:04 PM »

I have a question reference the cars going to the rear.  Say the situation is that there is a pile up involving more than the two cars with the others involved due to inability to avoid the problem then do all cars go to the rear or just the two originally involved which may be hard to determine.
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bruce harmon
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« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2008, 03:33:48 PM »

This is a blocked track issue and who had to stop as a result of the blocked track and who caused the blocked track is up to the judges to determine. If you caused the blocked track you go to the rear, it could be one car or it could be multiple cars, if you had to stop because the track was blocked then you get your spot back. The tower will be asking the judges immediatly what the decision is so that they can make the restart line up.
Quarter midget tracks do not lend themselves very well to avoiding accidents by driving around them, therefore the blocked  track decision is very common. And you do have to live with the judges decision its not up for discussion until after the race with the race director. Remember we are talking about 8-10 cars on a very small race track, determining who did what to who is never an exact science.
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flyinbrian
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2008, 12:28:17 PM »

Judging to me is overrated and up to 3 peoples opinions. My daughter was victim of 4 bad calls and with 3 called charging. When we were going through novice training and practicing at the track, I would take her out there and walk her into the turns and explained the "go/no go" lines. We watched the "judging video" on the QMA web site and I even used Hotwheels cars to explain. I felt it was important for her to understand racing hard, but race clean and be in control of herself on the track.

The three times she was called on charging, she had her RF tire in front of the outside cars roll cage opening and the kid drove down into her. As the QMA video states, it should be called chopping. I had these incidents on video all three times, but as everyone knows you cannot protest a judges call. I was furious they called her and not the other car.

The other bad call, I felt, was when my kid went to pass someone, but drove down below the turtles with all 4 wheels. Now, I understand the rule is if you gain a position, you are black flagged for that race. In this case, my kid did drive below the turtles in 3 & 4, was in front of the lead car coming out, but checked up to allow the car to pass her back BEFORE the start/finish line thereby relinquishing the position. Then she regrouped coming out of 2, went through 3 & 4 in 2nd, and made the pass for the lead going into turn 1. Technically, since she NEVER crossed the finish line in first after she made the mistake, according to the video, nothing should happen. In this case, the tower scored her in 1st BEFORE she crossed, the judges said she gained a position and did not relinquish it before crossing the line, and the track transponder loop is 2 or 3 ft BEFORE the finish line, it scored her as 1st for that lap. Again, this was on video, but since the "judges" made the call, she was black flagged…however, they NEVER black flagged her so she ran the race and finished 1st. According to the rules book, if someone is black flagged, they are to be removed from the track. THE BLACK FLAG WAS NEVER SHOWN. When we asked why, we got the "we had a radio problem and could not relay the message to the flag stand." Oh, I was ticked off (actually went off on the track officials). The reason I went off was because if they are going to follow a rule book, then they need to be sure to execute the rules as published.

I feel that judging is completely overrated if people who are veteran quarter midget owners cannot take the time to review the provided video to make the CORRECT call. It crushed my daughter because she raced her tail off only to have it taken away because 3 judges were too arrogant thinking they know everything. As for electronic scoring, I don't understand why the loop is well before the finish line. With that experience, it certainly put a bad taste in my mouth and did not show that this sport is for kids to have fun….haven't seen it yet.

I feel that officials can call rough driving and in the case when someone spins someone out, as in the big car rules they are penalized as causing the yellow. The person spinning also goes back. If anything, if judging is utilized, then those racing should be able to protest a judges call. It cannot be the last word on any race because we had evidence that the call was wrong. It's stupid to not allow someone the opportunity to argue a point. This should be especially available if it's clearly on the called cars video camera.

I know what I saw, and I'm sure there are quite a few people throughout the QMA who have been victim of bad calls.

Any word about tracks on the West Coast, besides LV, converting to USAC? Just wondering.

Thank You and forgive me for the long post.
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grandma13
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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2008, 03:54:09 PM »

I can certainly understand the flustration of judges with inadequate knowledge.  I have seen enough of it that is for certain.  The problem is getting the volunteers to do the judging.  Many are busy with their cars.  I wonder if a possiblity of having paid qualified judges has ever been discussed in any manner?  Secondly, the judges stands often make certain areas of the track difficult to see.  Thirdly, it is ultimately the child who gets hurt when these calls are made.  Last but not least something has to be done about the dirty driving tricks that some of these drivers are getting away with such as deliberate quick braking etc.  These young people have been taught this by adults I doubt any learned on their own.

I also wish to reference the hanging out of the cars past the safety bars.  Someone is going to get hurt enough to make them non functioning.  Think about a car coming on the inside and clipping that car and the driver is hanging out.  I doubt the most expensive helmet would ever protect that kind of situation.  Let alone if the car flips and rolls.  I know some seats are made to accommodate leaning but many times you can witness a driver loosen his safety straps to allow more leaning.

Never any easy answers but clean safe driving is a must not only for these children now but in the future on the highways and byways.
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gwjracing
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« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2008, 11:26:25 AM »

Baseball (Little League, Babe Ruth Ball, etc) hires umpires;  Many of these umpires are older teenagers and college students looking to make a few dollars, have fun, and add a line to a resume.  If it is necessary for judging to continue in QMA and or USAC, we should explore this as an option.  Almost all of the issues at our club are caused either by bad judging calls or by people who don't have the self control to deal with a call made against their kid.  This causes people to fight amongst themselves and take "revenge" the next time they are on the judging stand.  I think it would be a good experiment for a club to hire at least 3 judges and see what happens.....Frankly, it can't be worse than what we have now.
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goffin20
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« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2008, 11:01:17 PM »

I agree and have said the same.  Hire judges as little league does.
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