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Author Topic: Safety  (Read 22056 times)
2fast4u
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« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2009, 10:06:13 PM »

im_79, how can you put a price on your kids safety. Economy or not safety is your first expence in .25.
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Magic Man
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« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2009, 02:35:32 PM »

I want you all to honestly answer these questions.

1.) Does a properly mounted seat increase a drivers safety?
2.) Would you put your driver in a midget/sprint with a few cushions only?
3.) Should driver comfort take presidence over driver safety in regard to how tight seat
     belts should be worn or if a seat should be mandatory
3.) Does a hans make the driver more safe?
4.) Is leaning really honestly a good idea in regard holding safety to the highest
     standard?
5.) Is leaning the best and safest cure for biking?
6.) Are newer seatbelts better than 2 year old belts?

I think alot of people I have met in quarter midgets are great people, great parents but due to lack of racing experience outside of quarters are not qualified to make the decision on what is best for safety because what you have seen is only in your few years. If you do this long enough you will see that what you think is a freak accident happens all  the time and once is enough.  This is why an organization with experience like USAC should manage the safety and QMA should have an outside commitee draw up their safety sheet instead of the RCP process.

     
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 02:44:35 PM by Magic Man » Logged
ANB1
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« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2009, 03:24:16 PM »

well said buddy.  I never knew you were that smart....especially for a man your young age.  Happy b-day, btw.

Aaron-
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clouse55
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« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2009, 06:46:14 PM »

 
I want you all to honestly answer these questions.

1.) Does a properly mounted seat increase a drivers safety?
2.) Would you put your driver in a midget/sprint with a few cushions only?
3.) Should driver comfort take presidence over driver safety in regard to how tight seat
     belts should be worn or if a seat should be mandatory
3.) Does a hans make the driver more safe?
4.) Is leaning really honestly a good idea in regard holding safety to the highest
     standard?
5.) Is leaning the best and safest cure for biking?
6.) Are newer seatbelts better than 2 year old belts?

I think alot of people I have met in quarter midgets are great people, great parents but due to lack of racing experience outside of quarters are not qualified to make the decision on what is best for safety because what you have seen is only in your few years. If you do this long enough you will see that what you think is a freak accident happens all  the time and once is enough.  This is why an organization with experience like USAC should manage the safety and QMA should have an outside commitee draw up their safety sheet instead of the RCP process.

 Answers
     1. No. You must know first I'm not at all for hanging out of the left side of a car like an ape. Sitting the younger/smaller drivers straight up in a seat has more negatives than positives. Most of the really hard impacts are from head on or hard right front crashes. When you are sitting in the car straight up you are relying solely on the belts, neck collar, helmet, hans, etc to absorb shock, and there is none. When you roll down in the car and tilted to the left (like I said before, not hanging out like an ape!) the shock load is transfered not only more evenly through the shoulder, waist and 5th belt (which probably 50% of quarter midgets dont have and is stupid) the drivers feet, legs, back, will also help absorb the hit. Also sitting in this position the drivers left shoulder comes up naturally and most use an arm rest on the right that does the same, which keeps the neck collar tight to the helmet. Most younger drivers sitting upright with the belts properly tightened, you could throw a cat between their shoulders and neck collar. The issue is with the under developed neck and shoulders of the younger drivers and heavy helmets.

2. Not comparing apples to apples
3. No
3. Dont know, jury is still out   (By the way Magic, you got 2#3's lol)
4. See answer of 1
5. If you could see the numbers when you calculate roll centers, moment arms, weight transfer etc. with driver in different locations it all comes down to the drivers eyeballs work better when they are side by side rather than on top of each other LOL!
6 No The QMA 2-year seatbelt rule is one of the dumbest.

Not meant to be a pissin match or arguments just food for thought. Good post Majic Man.
       
 
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sfreitas20
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« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2009, 07:28:31 PM »

Here are my answers to the questions above:
1. Yes
2. HELL NO!
3a. No, but it is possible to have a comfortable driver and a safe one at the same time.  I still kick myself to this day for not taking a picture of my son sound asleep in his car in the chute waiting for the track to clear out on an open practice day (he was strapped in for about 20 minutes without moving).
3b. Yes, I also like the Hutchens device too.
4. NO...How could a kids head outside of the roll cage be safer than inside the cage?
5. Nope, buy a novice setup guide if you need some help with biking. Smiley
6. Depends...4 year old belts that are still in good shape, I would say yes they are just as good.  A set of six month old belts that are showing signs of wear due to crashes or installation, should be replaced.

Now for my two cents:

My family made a choice when my son started that we were investing in a Lajoie seat and we couldn't be happier with the purchase.  We could have a gotten a really great set of shocks for the car instead of running those old smoker shocks that needed refilled every race, but we decided to spend that money up front on something that would keep him safe and wait on the stuff that would make him faster.  After a couple shots into the wall, I am glad we did what we did.  We have also decided before he moves up he will be using either a HANs or a Hutchens device.  We know for that amount of money we could help make his car faster when he moves up, but we will go the route of safety now and speed later.

To put it bluntly, we all strap our kids into racecars knowing there are some inherit risks associated with it.  However, if the worst case scenario, that we all know is possible, should happen do you want to look back and wonder if a few hundred dollars might have changed the outcome?  I do not!
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Scott Freitas
Patriot Motorsports Inc.
clouse55
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« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2009, 07:43:40 PM »

Sorry my post got screwed up
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TysonThompson
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« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2009, 10:10:12 AM »

Thanks to all for keeping this post alive.  Through our discussions the sport will be safer.  I respect everyones input and lets agree to disagree on somethings.  But, with my experience as a driver and my research I have found these things to be truths:
                   1. The best position for a race driver to survive an impact is upright. The force of
                       impact is distributed over a larger area of the spine.  For those of you who have
                       been around sprint car racing, high backed seats became common after Brad
                       Doty's wreck.  The theory is if there is a "backboard" running the length of the
                       driver the shock would be spread over a larger area, reducing the chance of a
                       broken back.  This to me justifies using a seat. (we run 160 and do not have
                       biking issues by the way) .  If a leaning position is safer than why hasn't other
                       forms of racing adopted it.  I am sure Dr. Trammell or Dr. Henry Bock would love 
                       to give you info on this.  Dr. Trammell's website is motorsportsmd.com.  They are
                       leading medical advisors for the IRL and the FIA.
       
                   2.  The HANS works!!! Even at this level.  My daughter started wearing one after
                        she hit her head on the steering wheel causing her to bite her tongue.  This
                        incident happened at Terre Haute in NOVICE.  She was strapped in tight and
                        was wearing a neck collar and her head and neck still stretched enough to hit
                        the wheel.  We normally ran Mini Indy which was a lot faster than the dirt at
                        Terre Haute.  Two years have passed with her wearing the HANS and there
                        have been plenty of big hits and never has she even complained of being sore.
                        The HANS or similar device helps with the heavy helmet on a little head problem
                        as it slows down the whipping motion in a crash.  According to research done by
                        the SFI foundation the neck collars actually cause more harm than good as it
                        ads weight to the head and neck.  Neck collars are HELMET SUPPORTS!!! There
                        is no manufacturer that will claim otherwise.

      There is one more issue that needs to be mentioned.   UNDERARMOUR or similar material is very dangerous to wear in auto racing.  The material has a very low melting point and will embede itself into the skin requiring surgery.  The material will melt even without direct contact with flame.  Simpson Safety equipment has a bulletin about this topic.  I just wanted to mention it because it is popular at the indoors(for obvious reasons).
   

                   

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3rdturn
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« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2009, 04:14:30 PM »

A lot has been said about Driver Safety. But what about personnel properly trained to attend an injured driver. How many people know how to put a neck collar on, properly remove a helment. Should the helment be removed or left on after a hard crash? Does your track have the proper Fire Bottles (Cold Fire) is highly recommended, used by many of the top short tracks and the IRL. There are many more issues that come up on race day. So how tracks have the right people in place in case an accident happens.

  The IRL at one time had a Safety class given by Dave Brown, I don't know if it still availabe but would be worth looking into and very helpful
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atfd404
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« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2009, 08:22:52 PM »

I'm a reapointed safety dir.at CQMA I also hold a NASCAR hard card for MIS Fire & Safety Crew. As a safety dir. you need to be a leader in safety on your suff and all the other drivers equiptment also. Even if it is your buddy you can't let any thing slide for the kids sake. We will be trained in April on the new Hats off device that NASCAR,IRL and AMA Super Bikes & Supercross are recomending. I see that Simpson is offering there own device also. I do not hold any medical card for the State of Michigan but I have 17 years of fire & rescue training and experiance. As far as properly trained I feel that I am trained enough to know when to call for help. All I can say is work as a team on a driver that may be injured don't rush or feel like you are holding up the show remember the safety of the kids comes first. Most tracks don't have neck collars or stuff like that. Don't ever remove a helmet unless the driver is having a hard time breathing leave that up to a medic or EMT. I will be bringing some stuff from MIS that I learn this spring to CQMA this summer. To also add the IRL has there own safety team and I doubt they would share any info with any one trying to better our kids sport. Just my thoughts
Jeff Steele
CQMA safety Dir
Lansing,Mi
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gass
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« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2009, 08:52:24 PM »

To also add the IRL has there own safety team and I doubt they would share any info with any one trying to better our kids sport. Just my thoughts
Jeff Steele
CQMA safety Dir
Lansing,Mi

The one thing that I disagree with is the above statement.  I am the Customer Service Rep. and on the Advisory Board of INDY DownForce, "The Official Fan Club of the IRL" Tony George has been on the top of the list when it comes to Safety.  I talk with some of the Safety teams, flight nurse etc.. and  while I cannot speak for them, I cannot see any of them turning their back on a kid, if asked to come and talk, I bet you a few would, barring it isn't during race season which starts April 5th in St. Pete.  We have had the Safety Team come out and talk to INDY DownForce members, never a problem. 

Nancy Gass



« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 08:55:11 PM by gass » Logged
atfd404
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« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2009, 09:23:23 PM »

 Don't get me wrong the IRL Safety Team is one if not the best in the busness. They have a job to do and they do it well along with the crew ISC puts together for the NASCAR events at MIS that crew is top knoch just ask Ernie Ervin.Yes Tony George is on top of safety for the drivers I have seen it first hand and maybe the Safety Team's members are not the same as a few years ago as IRL no longer has a race at MIS.I'm not trying to start a argument my main consern(sp)at the track is the safety of my driver and all of the other drivers at that event. Please do all you as a handler and a parent keep the kids safe.
Jeff Steele
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gass
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« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2009, 09:56:18 PM »

Jeff,

It's all good, everything you have said regarding removing helmet etc... is true.  I have seen parents and handlers thinking they were doing the best for their kids by getting them out of the car and removing helmet and they don't realize the harm they can cause.   We have always tried to keep our son safe but have seen some that have skimped on safety. We bought a Hutchens Device for our son and a few people asked what it was for, it really surprised me.  I also see the radio as a added bonus for the kids, I know if we had it last year we may have not been hit a few times after a yellow...

Nancy
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grandma13
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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2009, 01:48:16 PM »

You all are saying exactly the right thing with the safety of the children and NOT removing the helmet.  I do wish to point out though that you need to take a good look at the medical team you bring in to be on stand by at the event.  This last summer our racer was run into a wall where she traveled the wall flipping numerous times.  Having come to a stop finally-medics were on hand as well as myself.  Finally making sure she was conscious she was taken to the medic ambulance where they proceeded to evaluate her.  I was very upset that they could not get a Blood Pressure on her because they had very poor equipment.  Finally I said get the cuff on her and I checked it radially.  Now to me these were NOT proper EMT techs let alone a set up for handling an emergency.  Thankfully, she had the proper equipment on, belts were tight, helmet was the best that she could have had as it was cracked after inspection.  Yet again I had to scream DO NOT remove the helmet, Support the neck.

So please everyone double check the EMT people you bring in.  If the track insists you use theirs then check their equipment and make sure they are certified EMTs-if not then time to say to the track that they need to be replaced no matter what the cost.

A big thanks to all concerned over the safety of our children. 
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ssssmoke
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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2009, 03:19:54 PM »

sure makes me feel alot better seeing you at the track granny, your always lending your great advice and everyone that reads your posts gains valuable knowledge, helping make our sport safer. i thank you.
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grandma13
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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2009, 04:58:06 PM »

Anytime I can help you know where to find me always have minor first aide stuff with me.

Glad you are a great friend to my son. Smiley
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