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Author Topic: New Honda Engine - moved  (Read 5778 times)
sprintcar39
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« on: December 23, 2009, 03:55:07 PM »

sfreitas20....why would you buy a 1,100.00+ engine to cheat in USAC? Why not run your existing 160 in QMA? That way you only actually need one motor....and a backup if necessary. No additional costs to your racing budget for 2010. IF USAC does allow the new motor you and everyone else will have to spend $2,200 minimum in 2010 per your scenario. There are many many details to this Thailand engine mess and I know that USAC is working on getting all the facts to help in making a well thought out plan for 2010 with the racers in mind....not any engine builder.

If you know of anyone needing the old Honda motor there are over 25 that you could get Monday......
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Eric Rankine
USAC Director of Competition
NWOQMRA - USAC .25
USAC - HPD Midget - Midwest Series
USAC National Midget - Spike/Esslinger
ssssmoke
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 05:37:21 PM »

ok phil, sorry if i sound like a pain in the rear end, i really dont want to be that guy. so back to the question. so tell the new guy buy an old style honda motor that is still available?
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sfreitas20
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 05:51:37 PM »

Eric...I appreciate your input always, but here is what we are looking at right now.

We want one of our drivers to move up to 160 for 2010 and in our state there is one USAC track and one QMA track.  We need to buy new engines because this is a new class to us.  I am hearing that USAC has not allowed the new engine because it makes more HP than the old ones.  If that is true then clearly we will need the new engine at the QMA track to be competitive.  So that is about $900 per engine (primary and backup) so about $1800 for that.  Then we will need to pick up two older engines which are USAC legal probably at about another $1000 - $1100 total cost for both of those.  So we are talking about $3000 in engines to run the 160 class.  The quick answer to save costs is to not purchase a new one for backup at the QMA track and just use one of the older ones for that, which is probably what we do.

If you are saying the older engine wouldn't put us at a disadvantage HP wise at the QMA tracks, then why is it illegal in USAC?  Anyone have the data on the differences between the two?  If not, no biggie our dyno will be ready soon and we will just find out for ourselves. Smiley
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Scott Freitas
Patriot Motorsports Inc.
Phil
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 06:01:48 PM »

 You can, if they just have to buy new and have it right now. You cant beat time on a motor and I'm sure there are some super good horses out there, most just dont know they have them. I personally wouldnt buy nothing untill USAC and QMA figure out what is final.

      
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sfreitas20
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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2009, 06:07:33 PM »

That would work if we were in Ohio or Indiana where it is frozen until March, but our racing season starts at the end of January so we need to hit the track sooner rather than later for practice.  We will just pick up an older 160 for now so he can practice and then we will wait and see what comes of it.  Like I said, I would like to see some of the data they currently have causing all the concern.  I really do hope there is considerable difference between the two...
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 06:12:51 PM by sfreitas20 » Logged

Scott Freitas
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sprintcar39
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2009, 08:42:34 PM »

Scott,   The reason the USAC .25 Competition Committee made the announcement that the Honda engines are illegal for now is so that we can compile the facts and to make sure there could be a tech manual in place if it was allowed for USAC .25 competition. It was also to inform the membership to hold off on the purchase of these engines while this process takes place. The new engines DO NOT conform to the current 120 or 160 tech manuals ....therefore making them illegal.


There are TWO very big issues. You are right.....we all need to see if there is actually an on track performance advantage between the two motors. The engine builders are saying yes ( I wonder why?) and even a few racers have said that. Some have also said that they didnt see any on track advantage. But with that being said I am in no rush to go out a buy one until I see the facts and on track performance. I will not buy into the hype just yet.

The other is TECH. This is by far the biggest issue everyone faces. Several of the new parts have specs that are all over the board. Several of the new parts are significantly different in both looks and dimensional. The FIRST thing you will need before this engine is allowed to compete is a tech manual. This is going to take some time and effort on many levels to come up with this and to make it fair for everyone. I would not want to be a tech guy for QMA at this point. How are they allowing this engine to compete with NO tech manual? How fair can that be? At this point I have not heard from anyone that has an answer to this problem, not the….engine builders, chassis builders….racers etc. Everyone I have spoke with says it is a huge mess….period.

I am sure that everyone is willing to listen to anyone who has any facts and a solution to this problem that everyone faces now. There are meetings that will take place after the first of the year to try and come up with some recommendations.

I also understand your desire for a speedy solution and I also understand what ssssmoke is asking….like so many others…..but this needs to be done right and not to have a knee jerk reaction to a problem only to make it a bigger problem for everyone down the road. Give USAC a little time with the hopes they get it right for the USAC .25 racers and families.

Eric
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Eric Rankine
USAC Director of Competition
NWOQMRA - USAC .25
USAC - HPD Midget - Midwest Series
USAC National Midget - Spike/Esslinger
TQ97
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2009, 11:22:17 PM »

Random question....why with these motors do you need a backup?  I've been in quarter midgets for 2 years, and have yet to see anyone blow a Honda (or any other) motor....so why is a backup necessary, other than just because and to have a spare?
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sfreitas20
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 10:41:03 AM »

Been in the sport for a year and a half and have seen at least 5 people go to a backup engine on raceday (one of them was one of our competitors and they bolted in our backup engine and went out and won the race).  Also, we race across the state on a Friday night and get torn down in Tech, which has happened, it is pretty rough to leave that track at 1:00am drive three hours home, reassemble the engine and leave at 7:00am for the track here for Saturday.
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Scott Freitas
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« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2009, 09:58:36 PM »

I understand USAC is introducing the Animal Motor in some of its classes.  This motor would allow someone to purchase 1 platform upon entering the sport, and only changing plates as they move up.  Is this true?

If a performance difference is determined between the two motors, why not produce specific plates for these motors leveling the playing field.  Or increasing the minimum weight for this motor?  Just some thoughts?

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sprintcar39
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« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2009, 11:33:22 AM »

Great question---

USAC is adding two new Briggs Animal classes fro 2010. These will be separate classes run by themselves. Several people have asked the same question that you brought up about running them together. So far the thought is that it would be to difficult to do all the on track testing, research and to compile all that information to make it fair for everyone. It would turn into the ford/chevy nascar type argument and someone would think the other had an advantage. But.....

Maybe in 2010 there can be some testing done towards reaching the goals you described above....and that it one of the great things about being involved with USAC in that they allow clubs to work with things like that. So lets say you decide at your club that you have 3 jr hondas and 3 briggs animals and would like to run them all together and everyone is in agreement.....then you can do that. It is a win win for everyone. If anyone decides to do this.....and can froward the information to the USAC .25 Competition Committee we can pass it along to other clubs and to help with any further plans to run them together. This is how things will get done.
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Eric Rankine
USAC Director of Competition
NWOQMRA - USAC .25
USAC - HPD Midget - Midwest Series
USAC National Midget - Spike/Esslinger
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