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sfreitas20
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« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2009, 03:01:43 PM »

I agree a wider track width is probably worth considering for the heavier classes.  However USAC has other rules in place that could be used to help stop the practice too.  Sit the kids up straight, then enforce Section 5, Item E of the USAC Race Procedures.  After a few DQs due to the car bicycling, a handler will either figure out how to make it work or slow it down.  Afterall, you can't win when you are at your trailer with a DQ.

Section 5 under the "Duties of a Chief Steward"
5. The Chief Steward will have authority to immediately disqualify a driver/car for
the following:
Item E under section 5:
E. Car being operated in an unsafe manner. (Excessive bicycling 3
consecutive corners, Stuck throttle, No brakes, etc)
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Scott Freitas
Patriot Motorsports Inc.
Swartz
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« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2009, 03:23:15 PM »

So your saying put the kids in a situation where they can't avoid biking and then DQ them for it? You have to consider to that the first time a car bikes may be the only time and it could clear the fence doing it. Seen it happen.
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sfreitas20
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« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2009, 03:47:24 PM »

I am not for putting the kids in that situation at all.  However, if at the next race USAC informed the teams that the following race they had to be sitting upright in the car and if they bike it really bad they are getting DQ'd as per that rule, the handlers will solve the problem, even if that means slowing the car down.  The ones that don't would get DQ'd and after a couple of them, they will find a way.  In the end the sport would be far safer than it is right now with the head and shoulders outside the main frame rail.
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Scott Freitas
Patriot Motorsports Inc.
Swartz
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« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2009, 03:50:07 PM »

Okeydoky, what adjustment would you make?
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ssssmoke
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« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2009, 03:59:48 PM »

a 600 is the only thing i can think of. or maybe coilovers using springs off of a 79 bronco. just a couple of thoughts.
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sfreitas20
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« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2009, 04:05:48 PM »

How about this crazy idea...your driver rolls out of the throttle earlier? Wink
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Scott Freitas
Patriot Motorsports Inc.
ssssmoke
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« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2009, 04:11:23 PM »

boring!!! this is racing. lol
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Swartz
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« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2009, 04:12:40 PM »

I don't know what kind of racing you are used to but that is not an option. The objective is to get maximum performance while allowing the driver to maintain controll. Besides, biking has nothing to do with throttle controll. Its all about overturning momentum. Lifting into the corner may mask it, and make sure your kid never get a trophy, but the first time it gets knocked sideways on the straight, hooks and rolls, what have you accomplished. So, what adjustment would you make?
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sfreitas20
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« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2009, 04:21:14 PM »

As long as all the cars are close to equal, the racing stays the same or even gets better because those slow pokes at the back of the pack get to catch up. Smiley

If we have reached the safe limits of speed with the current car/track designs then we a few options:

1. We can slow the cars down.
2. We can redesign the cars.
3. We can redesign the track.
4. We can move our kids completely outside the frame rails and have them sit on a pad on the left side nerf bar then only steer with their right hand because it is all that will reach the steering wheel. Wink
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Scott Freitas
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Swartz
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« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2009, 04:31:24 PM »

That's what I though. You don't know.
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BQwkR
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« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2009, 04:43:07 PM »

What does roll out of the throttle mean? We don't teach that. Does that mean slow down on the curves? Heck, isn't that where races are really won?
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sfreitas20
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« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2009, 04:50:15 PM »

"Its all about overturning momentum." - No offense man, but increased speed equals increased momentum.  Slow the cars down and you decrease momentum.  Not my opinion, scientific and mathematical fact.

"The objective is to get maximum performance while allowing the driver to maintain control." - Correct, a car biking on two wheels isn't maintaining control.

Lucky for me at Junior Honda speeds and on banked tracks I haven't had to adjust for this issue, but right now with how AJ's car is sitting in my garage if I had to, I would:

Move the 30lbs of lead (I love having a skinny driver) under his seat as far left as possible.  Maybe even make the lower left side body panels out of a heavier metal to get the weight as far left as possible.  One other option along this line is much thicker tubing for the left side nerf bar to increase the weight that is furthest to the left, but that is a very small gain in weight, but again still an option.

I would move the RR out the rest of the way, because we are 1/2" under the max width.

I would increase the RR tire pressure because we are in the 8 - 10 range right now.

If I really wanted to get creative too, I could move my lefts sides in another 1/2 - 3/4", but it would be a lot of work.  If I needed to do it though, I would.

One thing I won't consider is wrapping the left side nerf bars with padding so AJ can rest his head on them. Wink
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Scott Freitas
Patriot Motorsports Inc.
Swartz
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2009, 04:55:06 PM »

Those are all intresting ideas when you have a 40 lbs driver but totaly useless when you have a 155 lbs one. Overturning momentum has not so much to do with speed as it does with the relationship between the center of gravity and the roll center. You can get a Jr. Rookie car to bike if you try.
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sfreitas20
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« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2009, 05:03:54 PM »

Like I said I haven't had to deal with it at Jr Honda speeds with a 45 pound driver on banked tracks.  That I am thankful for.

However if this sport can't safely have heavy classes race these cars at these speeds without them biking while keeping the driver safely contained inside the car, then something else will have to be considered at some point.  I am sure over the years some very intelligent people have tried to make a heavy car handle without biking.  If you get to the point there is nothing left to adjust or throw at it and the car still bikes, then the other three options I mentioned are about all you are left with.  Trust me, at some point this won't be an option.  When there is some ridiculous insurance claim related to this (if you haven't noticed our society as a whole is insanely sue happy), the insurance companies will make the sanctioning body make changes.
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Scott Freitas
Patriot Motorsports Inc.
ssssmoke
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« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2009, 09:51:52 PM »

i got it. a horse carousel (pronounced care-o-sell). put it in the infield attach a rope around the top of the race car. sit the driver strait up no biking!!!! damn, we will have to start single file and no passing. 
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