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Author Topic: Do-Over Lap  (Read 5276 times)
RBurns17
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« on: August 25, 2012, 02:58:54 PM »

I've been away from .25s for the last year and a half, but I managed to go out and catch the heat races at the local club today. In one of them I watched the field take the green and two cars spin on the first lap, both getting their spot back. After the race I asked officials what the deal was and their explanation was that everyone gets their spot back if it's the first lap. I questioned further about when this changed and was told it's a USAC thing?

Normally I would chock it up to a bad call, but at Lakeville last week I watched five cars crash as the race started, all needing repairs behind the wall, with two of the five getting their spot back. The explanation was about the same, so I must ask:

Have I really been away that long?
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Kendall42
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2012, 12:07:36 AM »

That really makes no sense...that is not the rule.  First...if the green waves, there will not be a complete double file restart...that only happens once.  If the green waves and there is an accident, the restart will be nose to tail in starting order EXCEPT the cars in the accident or that went DOT.  If the tangle happened coming to green...but the green never waved, then they will all get thier spots back and there is a complete restart.  The only way I can see this scenario happening is if 2 cars tangled but never went DOT and flag man was fast on the caution...and neither car was given a strike, then maybe they could get their spot back...flag man and race director would have to decide this...meaning no car was charged w causing the caution.

In the incident where 5 cars come to the pits for repair...again, if the green waved, the race is hot.  All 5 that went to the pits must tag the tail. Now...given 5 cars of at most 10 in the race...it is possible a couple cars ended up back in the order they started in...just by the order they rolled back out of the pits.

If it is at the club level...it is hard to say what happened though. Not all calls are perfect...even at GenNxt events, errors happen. There is still a human element to this system. 
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Ezone
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2012, 12:30:16 PM »

The rule is as follows -- as currently published:

"On the initial double file start of the race, it is possible to have an incident where
the cause cannot be determined and several cars may be involved. This results
from the close racing of the entire field, accelerating in one corner at the same
time. If the green flag was shown on the initial start, the Chief Steward may
declare a single file restart, with no strikes called or cars sent to the tail if it is not
possible to determine the cause of the incident."

The wording does not address a car that goes DOT and must go to the tail, so there is room for some discrepency here.  It says that the Chief Steward "MAY" declare a single file restart -- not must.  It does state that no cars may be sent to the tail, or at least is open to interpretation that way.  Whenever rules are written this way, there are interpretations that come about.  I have seen it done both ways.  We should have USAC clean up this wording if they havent done so already so its clear.  Unless I missed something in this wording, as this directly addresses the intital start of the race.
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Kendall42
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2012, 09:29:40 PM »

Good clarification...thanks.  The only two things missing from the rule as you posted (as USAC has written) are the single file restart and cars that went DOT.  I do not have time to scour the rules looking for that info...but I have to believe there is a rule under the flags that states a double file green flag will only wave once, after that restarts will be single file.  Also...I know there is a written rule that says a car that goes DOT must restart on the tail.  So...as I stated initially...if no cars got a strike on the initial restart, the next restart would be single file and if just a racing incident with not strike the cars would all get their spot back...unless they went DOT. 

There are a few things USAC needs to clean up...first one would be to make the .25 series about the kids again and not business revenue.  This philosophy has really back slid since 3 years ago.  I have a lot more to say...but will bite my tongue till January 1, 2013.   Wink
 
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RBurns17
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« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 09:03:06 AM »

Good clarification...thanks.  The only two things missing from the rule as you posted (as USAC has written) are the single file restart and cars that went DOT.  I do not have time to scour the rules looking for that info...but I have to believe there is a rule under the flags that states a double file green flag will only wave once, after that restarts will be single file.  Also...I know there is a written rule that says a car that goes DOT must restart on the tail.  So...as I stated initially...if no cars got a strike on the initial restart, the next restart would be single file and if just a racing incident with not strike the cars would all get their spot back...unless they went DOT. 

There are a few things USAC needs to clean up...first one would be to make the .25 series about the kids again and not business revenue.  This philosophy has really back slid since 3 years ago.  I have a lot more to say...but will bite my tongue till January 1, 2013.   Wink
 

I agree. I've been grabbing up every piece of race footage I have been able to get my hands on as I look to come back into the sport, but as I watch, I'm not so sure I want to. At the local club it's common place for DOT'ed cars to get their spot back. When USAC came into the sport the promise was to get rid of judging to a degree and DOT's almost always meant going to the tail, even if you weren't at fault. In the races I've watched almost every incident with two DOT cars has at least one of them being put back in line.

I try to get answers whenever I can, but it's usually the same runaround with different methodology in every explanation. I'm not looking to travel the national schedule so the local club's interpretation of the rules is important, only the two clubs I've watched seem to be in disarray when it comes to this particular aspect.
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RBurns17
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« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 09:08:57 AM »

But after a club official (kid in the same class) approaching my 7-year old nephew at sign in's at the Hoosier race and taunting him by asking if his new car had brakes and then when being asked why responding, "because you've been running over everyone out there," my interest is pretty minimal in coming back at this point. I guess I wouldn't mind so much if it hadn't been swept under the rug. I hate to sound like an old-timer, but three years ago that would have been an automatic 30-day vacation. You never taunt a child. I just haven't been around the track in awhile, but that seems to be the perfectly embodiment of how much things have changed since I've started trying to follow it again.

I appreciate the replies. Just trying to get some clarification on how some of the procedures have changed.
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Carson14
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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2012, 08:21:58 AM »

Here's the rules copied from the Owner's Garage found in Appendix II:

9. During the initial lineup and before the green flag falls,
cars that stop on the track will be put back in their original position unless there is
a disqualification or penalty.

7. Double file lineup will only be for initial starts. Following a yellow flag and after restart line up has been
determined; single file restart signal should be displayed. Hold a rolled yellow and a rolled green together in one hand straight above or in front of the Flag person. All restarts will be single file after initial double file.

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RBurns17
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2012, 12:43:06 PM »

Here's the rules copied from the Owner's Garage found in Appendix II:

9. During the initial lineup and before the green flag falls,
cars that stop on the track will be put back in their original position unless there is
a disqualification or penalty.

7. Double file lineup will only be for initial starts. Following a yellow flag and after restart line up has been
determined; single file restart signal should be displayed. Hold a rolled yellow and a rolled green together in one hand straight above or in front of the Flag person. All restarts will be single file after initial double file.


My question is more curiosity about procedure. I know the rulebook almost by memory, but what I'm seeing at every level of .25 is inconsistency and procedures that don't match up to what the rulebook says. In the first instance I listed the green had already fell so that rule wouldn't apply. The second instance has to do with cars going behind the wall, at a traveling series race mind you, and two of the five getting their spot back which I don't see any justification for.

More than anything I was hoping someone could give me an explanation for this so I know what I'm coming back into.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2012, 12:45:04 PM by RBurns17 » Logged
Torgesen Motorsports
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2012, 10:13:51 PM »

I was trying to stay out of this but as someone who race directed at the Little Hoosier and at Kokomo which seem to be where your concerns are I would like to share my opinion. First and foremost race directing is done by humans so there will most certainly be errors and inconsistancies as with every umpire in every sport that each have very specific rules. In addition to that at Kokomo events as well as many others they are operated by volenteers and the same person does not likely race direct all classes. This would be the largest reason for inconsistancy. As everyone involved in this sport knows every incident on the track has at least 3 peoples differing opinions on what atually happened. Only the race directors counts.

Now to my opinion on your specific questions. When I direct if there is an incident on the the start after the 1 to go but before the cars cross the start/finish and it just appears to be from contact from how close they have to start to each other I will line them back up double file in order even if there is a dot. If a car goes behind the wall for any reason as a result, that car will get courtesy laps and go to the tail. If they cross the start/finish it will go single file with dots at the back. Right or wrong thats how I read the rules and how I do it.

 As far as your concern with the 5 cars going dot and some getting their spots back I believe that was my kids race and cars got their spots back in the order they came out of the hot chute. For some that may have been their original spot. I can tell you that my wife runs the tower and at the Hoosier she had the most experienced help in the sport. Not to mention she is extremly contiencious of the rules and the lineup. I have been straightend out a few times when questioning a lineup. Feel free to politely ask her for an explaination when ever it doesnt seem right to you. Or better yet we always need help in the Kokomo tower come sit in on occasion I have found it to be humbling.
I hope this helps. I want you to come back to the sport. We need growth. You just have to remember that there are inconsistancies and they will be frustrating but its part of the sport. There will be bad calls some against you and some for you. Same in all sports. You can complain or you can put yourself in a position to make it better. Bottom line is if you let it get to you, it will take away from your fun and more importantly your childs fun.
Rob
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RBurns17
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Posts: 228


« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2012, 12:48:15 AM »

I was trying to stay out of this but as someone who race directed at the Little Hoosier and at Kokomo which seem to be where your concerns are I would like to share my opinion. First and foremost race directing is done by humans so there will most certainly be errors and inconsistancies as with every umpire in every sport that each have very specific rules. In addition to that at Kokomo events as well as many others they are operated by volenteers and the same person does not likely race direct all classes. This would be the largest reason for inconsistancy. As everyone involved in this sport knows every incident on the track has at least 3 peoples differing opinions on what atually happened. Only the race directors counts.

Now to my opinion on your specific questions. When I direct if there is an incident on the the start after the 1 to go but before the cars cross the start/finish and it just appears to be from contact from how close they have to start to each other I will line them back up double file in order even if there is a dot. If a car goes behind the wall for any reason as a result, that car will get courtesy laps and go to the tail. If they cross the start/finish it will go single file with dots at the back. Right or wrong thats how I read the rules and how I do it.

 As far as your concern with the 5 cars going dot and some getting their spots back I believe that was my kids race and cars got their spots back in the order they came out of the hot chute. For some that may have been their original spot. I can tell you that my wife runs the tower and at the Hoosier she had the most experienced help in the sport. Not to mention she is extremly contiencious of the rules and the lineup. I have been straightend out a few times when questioning a lineup. Feel free to politely ask her for an explaination when ever it doesnt seem right to you. Or better yet we always need help in the Kokomo tower come sit in on occasion I have found it to be humbling.
I hope this helps. I want you to come back to the sport. We need growth. You just have to remember that there are inconsistancies and they will be frustrating but its part of the sport. There will be bad calls some against you and some for you. Same in all sports. You can complain or you can put yourself in a position to make it better. Bottom line is if you let it get to you, it will take away from your fun and more importantly your childs fun.
Rob

Once again, my explanation has been ignored. In both incidents that I described the green had already been waved and the incidents were in the first turn of lap 1, which makes the rule you are explaining completely useless. As has been pointed out, once the green falls, that rule is no longer the authority on procedure, but I've seen it applied in several situations such as this and would like a little clarity on whether it's just a common error or I'm missing something. And if it's the former, why it hasn't been addressed.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 01:48:35 AM by RBurns17 » Logged
RBurns17
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Posts: 228


« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2012, 01:07:21 AM »

I was trying to stay out of this but as someone who race directed at the Little Hoosier and at Kokomo which seem to be where your concerns are I would like to share my opinion. First and foremost race directing is done by humans so there will most certainly be errors and inconsistancies as with every umpire in every sport that each have very specific rules. In addition to that at Kokomo events as well as many others they are operated by volenteers and the same person does not likely race direct all classes. This would be the largest reason for inconsistancy. As everyone involved in this sport knows every incident on the track has at least 3 peoples differing opinions on what atually happened. Only the race directors counts.

Now to my opinion on your specific questions. When I direct if there is an incident on the the start after the 1 to go but before the cars cross the start/finish and it just appears to be from contact from how close they have to start to each other I will line them back up double file in order even if there is a dot. If a car goes behind the wall for any reason as a result, that car will get courtesy laps and go to the tail. If they cross the start/finish it will go single file with dots at the back. Right or wrong thats how I read the rules and how I do it.

 As far as your concern with the 5 cars going dot and some getting their spots back I believe that was my kids race and cars got their spots back in the order they came out of the hot chute. For some that may have been their original spot. I can tell you that my wife runs the tower and at the Hoosier she had the most experienced help in the sport. Not to mention she is extremly contiencious of the rules and the lineup. I have been straightend out a few times when questioning a lineup. Feel free to politely ask her for an explaination when ever it doesnt seem right to you. Or better yet we always need help in the Kokomo tower come sit in on occasion I have found it to be humbling.
I hope this helps. I want you to come back to the sport. We need growth. You just have to remember that there are inconsistancies and they will be frustrating but its part of the sport. There will be bad calls some against you and some for you. Same in all sports. You can complain or you can put yourself in a position to make it better. Bottom line is if you let it get to you, it will take away from your fun and more importantly your childs fun.
Rob

Further, my examples didn't list any club, member, or driver in the instance. And it was because I didn't want to turn this into an argument about a specific club, but since you've broached the subject. As I said, I've attended race at several clubs and on the touring level and seen this same inconsistency about crashes in turn 1-2 after the green has been taken. They were just a complete retelling of something that happened. I'm sorry you feel the need to defend why race procedure at your club is inconsistent. I don't care that officials are volunteers. The entire point to my post is why it's not being addressed and fixed. We have rules for a reason, not so when something incorrect happens someone can go "well they are volunteers and sometimes the call is for you and others it is against you." We have a rulebook for a reason, and if someone doesn't know the general rules, they shouldn't be officiating a race. I don't mind errors, but this is not an error, it's a misunderstanding of the rules throughout. When I ask a club official why a particular procedure is being done like it has been and their explanation defies what the rulebook says, you can believe I'm going to question it.

And I've sat in Kokomo's tower many times. I was one of the first people to raise my hand when we were the first track to jump over to USAC and fielded three cars  in the first USAC race at the club. That was back when we had some 90 member families and over a 100 cars signing in every week. What I've witnessed in my visits this season is a sad shell of that, with maybe 40 cars at each race. I wouldn't go sit in the tower if you paid me to today, especially given that the tower-head felt the need to approach my 7-year old nephew at sign-ins and taunt him both at an early race this year and at the Hoosier race. I would also have to disagree with your tower workers giving individual drivers pointers during the race.

I don't appreciate being talked to like I'm new to the sport, especially given my contributions to the club you assume I've never been to or helped work a race at. When about a fourth of the members wanted to go USAC, we were one of the member families who supported it and helped push the other 3/4ths to vote it in. When there wasn't enough parking for major races, we were the member family who donated and operated the equipment to solve that problem. When the biggest offsite race of the year needed a wall, we were the member family who did the leg work to acquire a suitable wall and paid to have it trucked in and out on race weekend. So please refrain from assuming that I've never officiated a race or did thing to, as you say, "put yourself in a position to make it better" instead of "complaining." I'm not trying to make anything better, I'm trying to make it right, and if it is already right, get an explanation on why it's right and where I'm mistaken. But, it's very unnecessary and rude to assume I've never sat foot in the tower or to use that as an argument point when you've completely ignored the initial question and offered and explanation that doesn't apply.

I didn't want to make this an argument about a particular club and I didn't want to lose my temper over a question of early race procedure, but in identifying the club you've made it about the club and in telling me a certain official is "contiencious" of the rules when I've witnessed otherwise you've made me lose my temper.

That's what ruins my fun, and that's what most definitely ruins my driver's fun. It's sad that he's 7 and I have to hear him talk about being verbally abused at sign-ins because a competing driver has a family member running the tower during her child's races. A similar instance happened in 2010 and the family involved got a 30 day suspension. If you didn't have a reasonable solution for the situations I described you had no business responding, especially in the presumptuous and pretentious manner you did.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 01:34:15 AM by RBurns17 » Logged
RBurns17
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Posts: 228


« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2012, 08:09:25 AM »

Here's the rules copied from the Owner's Garage found in Appendix II:

9. During the initial lineup and before the green flag falls,
cars that stop on the track will be put back in their original position unless there is
a disqualification or penalty.

7. Double file lineup will only be for initial starts. Following a yellow flag and after restart line up has been
determined; single file restart signal should be displayed. Hold a rolled yellow and a rolled green together in one hand straight above or in front of the Flag person. All restarts will be single file after initial double file.



This rule does bring up a good point. At which point would the green have fallen? Say half the field has crossed the start-finish line and an incident happens. Technically the green has fallen, but the entire field has not taken the green. So it would be nice to have some clarity on what should happen in such a situation. It seems it could be interpreted either way. I've seen situations like that go either way, especially in large fields where the leaders have arrived at the first turn, where an incident is likely to happen on a start, but part of the field hasn't crossed the line.
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Torgesen Motorsports
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2012, 08:44:25 AM »

As I expected you took it all the wrong way. Good luck on finding your answers.
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Walker23
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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2012, 08:53:41 AM »

A simple solution is this:

No passing or pulling out of line prior to crossing the START line once the green flag falls. If a yellow is thrown before the cars complete the first lap, a single attempt at a double-file restart shall occur. Any cars entering the hot chute for repairs shall join at the tail (2 lap rule shall apply or whetever rule is in place at club). If a second attempt at a double file restart fails cars will line up single file for future restarts.


Now the need for timing the start, or having the tail of the field push through the front of the field in T4 will hopefully be eliminated thus removing the inconsistency with the rule you mentioned.
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Kris Walker
RBurns17
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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2012, 09:26:42 AM »

As I expected you took it all the wrong way. Good luck on finding your answers.


Must be what I did. Thanks for your insights into the subject....
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