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Author Topic: Do-Over Lap  (Read 5331 times)
RBurns17
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« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2012, 09:36:22 AM »

A simple solution is this:

No passing or pulling out of line prior to crossing the START line once the green flag falls. If a yellow is thrown before the cars complete the first lap, a single attempt at a double-file restart shall occur. Any cars entering the hot chute for repairs shall join at the tail (2 lap rule shall apply or whetever rule is in place at club). If a second attempt at a double file restart fails cars will line up single file for future restarts.


Now the need for timing the start, or having the tail of the field push through the front of the field in T4 will hopefully be eliminated thus removing the inconsistency with the rule you mentioned.

I agree. That would be a very sensible procedure. Would you put DOT cars back in line if an incident were to happen on the first lap? I wouldn't really mind either way, just looking for clarity on that one sticking point because other than that, there is no way to misconstrue what you've proposed. But, I do think giving cars a whole lap with the guarantee of reprieve might become hectic. That's why I'm so fixated on this particular procedure. If kids know they can barrel into turn 1 and do gutsy things without much consequence what's to stop it from getting out of hand and hampering the first lap of every race?

I guess I'm from the dirt tracks where a DOT is a DOT no matter whether you're lining up or get tagged in the middle of a race. I've seen cars get spun in the middle of a race plenty this year and it seems like sometimes they get their spot back and sometimes they don't. I ranted about my own nephew getting his spot back in such an instance. I just think that taking the judgement equation out of it to a degree is more important than anything. When USAC came in they pressed the whole "a DOT is a DOT and you will always go to the tail" thing and I thought it worked great. It seemed to police itself and while sometimes unfair, it stayed within reason. On the touring side of things it still seems to be that way, but down at the club level it seems like it varies.
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Walker23
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« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2012, 02:24:30 PM »

I would put the DOT cars back in the original order. BUt send the cars that went into the hot chute at the tail applying the rule where once a line up is called cars entering the track go to the tail. That one already exists.

Turn one - first lap wrecks already are hectic this is due to the fact that passing can commence prior to the start/finish line. With the removal of passing prior to the start finish car 3 will have the same speed as car 1 and same with car 5. We do this on restarts at Toledo and have very little accidents resulting from passes began prior to the S/F line. With a simple rule as I mentioned any car jumping out of line prior to s/f line will be given one warning, then sent to the tail for a repeated offense.

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Kris Walker
RBurns17
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« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2012, 02:52:25 PM »

I would put the DOT cars back in the original order. BUt send the cars that went into the hot chute at the tail applying the rule where once a line up is called cars entering the track go to the tail. That one already exists.

Turn one - first lap wrecks already are hectic this is due to the fact that passing can commence prior to the start/finish line. With the removal of passing prior to the start finish car 3 will have the same speed as car 1 and same with car 5. We do this on restarts at Toledo and have very little accidents resulting from passes began prior to the S/F line. With a simple rule as I mentioned any car jumping out of line prior to s/f line will be given one warning, then sent to the tail for a repeated offense.



Makes perfect sense, I didn't account for the even speeds it would create. So you would keep the acceleration point where it's at so the cars would reach speed, but keep the cars in line until the start-finish line? I wonder though, with a double-file start would it create a problem at a smaller track giving the field just a few ten feet to sort out. What I mean to say is, somewhere like Kokomo it would be tight. Especially considering the tight turn 1-2 which is less wide because a big part of the hotchute is cut out of it. I'm not saying it wouldn't work though. If anything, it's worth looking into.

I just feel like the first lap of .25s are broken as is. It could be as simple as just clarifying the rule or changing it, but right now there is confusion. Where I worry about a first lap reprieve is drivers who realize it's almost a free pass. I could see drivers leaning on one another or something because the lessened consequence. Why I draw this conclusion is, watching and rewatching taped races this year, I see drivers who will jump the first start knowing if they get caught it's just a warning. I don't know that it would be that way, just something I wonder about.
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sprintcar39
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« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2012, 09:18:29 PM »

I will try to give a little input on how the first lap rule came about as I was in attendance at that very event.

It was at the very first USAC .25 race at the Tampa race track where this all began. On the first day of racing going into turn one about 6 cars all got tangled up together maybe more and i think 4 stopped on the track. Now remind you that this was the first QM race for USAC and the first time that strikes were used for any car that was involved in a incident. And to that degree we only allowed 2 strikes and you were done. So all six cars got strikes and went to the tail for the first day of racing. Then if you were involved in a incident again in that same race you were done. This was all new to everyone and took some getting use to.


After spending many hours discussing this that evening it was determined that USAC would change the rule going forward. The next day if there was a incident within the first lap and you could not determine what actually transpired then there would be a complete restart and everyone gets their spot back. If you went to the pits you go to the tail. If you go to the pits you ALWAYS go to the tail....period.


Everyone that participated at that first event all agreed that this was a good rule change.

If you can tell the cars that were actually involved in a incident on the first lap you should put strikes on those two cars and put them to the tail and restart single file.

Since that time USAC has gone to three strikes so that can affect how this rule is looked at by the racers.

I didn't have time to look for the actual rule but I will and if it is not worded correctly I'm sure it will be addressed at the USAC .25 Competition Meeting.

Hope this help to give a understanding on how this all came about back to day one.

Eric
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Eric Rankine
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RBurns17
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2012, 01:20:32 PM »

"On the initial double file start of the race, it is possible to have an incident where
the cause cannot be determined and several cars may be involved.  This results
from the close racing of the entire field, accelerating in one corner at the same
time. If the green flag was shown on the initial start, the Chief Steward may
declare a single file restart, with no strikes called or cars sent to the tail if it is not
possible to determine the cause of the incident"

This is the rule that pertains to that particular circumstance. The trouble I find with this is that is extremely vague and does not explain when the initial start of the race ends. If it's the first lap I think it would help to state that the entire first lap falls under this rule. Even as is, the first scenario was a car clipping the one infront of it trying to pass it. So I wouldn't think that would fall under this rule.

It also doesn't address DOT cars and if it is to be assumed DOT cars get their spot back, it contradicts the rule that the the only time a DOT car keeps his position is when they are not involved in the initial contact. I think in general the DOT rules need to be better defined and explained to clubs. At our local club it seems to be common place to give cars their spots back if they get clipped in the middle of a race and go DOT, only it seems like a judgment call because it is a 50/50 chance they're going to do it. I can't find anything in the rules that says that after an initial start a DOT car gets its spot back, unless the incident is involving a lapped car who initiates an incident. And even then it's only implied that that the other car will not be given a strike that will put him to the tail. Again, it doesn't mention DOT'ed cars specifically.

I'm seeing such a difference between the procedures of tracks who claim to be going only by USAC procedures, so I think maybe clarification and more precise wording would help. In my opinion though, if we want these kids to get the real racing experience, in everything else once the lineup is called to form, a DOT is a DOT.
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RBurns17
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2012, 01:28:12 PM »

To clarify, I think the problem with the rulebook is it tries to address and explain the procedures for several different scenarios (lapped cars involved with lead laps cars, cautions thrown where nobody goes DOT, cautions where cars go DOT) and then goes on to make other rules without distinguishing which scenario the rule is meant for. Some would assume the rule I mentioned is meant for first lap contact where a caution is thrown and everybody continues on, explaining how to handle giving out strikes and giving the officials a rule that will allow them to not give out a strike to anyone. But, as someone heavily involved in the formation of USAC, you know the rule was meant to include cars that go DOT.

I think maybe adding "unless otherwise noted" to the "DOT cars go to the tail" procedure and then otherwise noting the procedures meant to put DOT cars back in their place. Maybe that and some clarification on what exactly they mean by the initial start of the race would completely clear this up.
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RBurns17
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2012, 03:40:42 PM »

I will try to give a little input on how the first lap rule came about as I was in attendance at that very event.

It was at the very first USAC .25 race at the Tampa race track where this all began. On the first day of racing going into turn one about 6 cars all got tangled up together maybe more and i think 4 stopped on the track. Now remind you that this was the first QM race for USAC and the first time that strikes were used for any car that was involved in a incident. And to that degree we only allowed 2 strikes and you were done. So all six cars got strikes and went to the tail for the first day of racing. Then if you were involved in a incident again in that same race you were done. This was all new to everyone and took some getting use to.


After spending many hours discussing this that evening it was determined that USAC would change the rule going forward. The next day if there was a incident within the first lap and you could not determine what actually transpired then there would be a complete restart and everyone gets their spot back. If you went to the pits you go to the tail. If you go to the pits you ALWAYS go to the tail....period.


Everyone that participated at that first event all agreed that this was a good rule change.

If you can tell the cars that were actually involved in a incident on the first lap you should put strikes on those two cars and put them to the tail and restart single file.

Since that time USAC has gone to three strikes so that can affect how this rule is looked at by the racers.

I didn't have time to look for the actual rule but I will and if it is not worded correctly I'm sure it will be addressed at the USAC .25 Competition Meeting.

Hope this help to give a understanding on how this all came about back to day one.

Eric

I would like to thank you for your insights into this. I think it helps us all understand what the spirit of the rule actually is.
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