USAC Racing Forum

General Chat => Point .25 => Topic started by: racecar99 on October 19, 2010, 10:14:53 AM



Title: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: racecar99 on October 19, 2010, 10:14:53 AM
Just wanted to know what the exact rule is in regards to a driver turning the age to move up before the points season is over? Should this driver be allowed to use the last 2 races as there drops or should they have to use 2 drops from when they were the correct age to perticipate in that class?


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on October 19, 2010, 10:31:46 AM
James could probably confirm if this is correct or not, but it would depend on which points you are referring to, National, East Coast or Local Track.

The rule doesn't specifically say anything about drops.  Here is the rule:
Drivers who turn 9 during a racing season must move on their birthday.
Exception: If you qualify for an event when you are 8, you may finish the event.
Driver must move after the conclusion of the event.

For the Gen Next (National) series the rules said the best 5 out of 10 events counted, so as long as you ran 5 when you were still under 9 you wouldn't have to run the rest to still be scored as a Jr for the points.  The East Coast Challenge rules are similar with regard to that and it is your best 4 races out of the 6, so as long as you run 4 of them when you are under 9 then they count.

The local tracks is going to tougher because they clubs/tracks have the ability to handle this as they see fit.  Here in Tampa, you can drop the remaining dates after your birthday.  A driver two seasons ago won the Jr Honda championship in Tampa when he was nine because he amassed enough points before his birthday so he could drop the rest and still win it.

I hope that helps.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: racecar99 on October 19, 2010, 10:39:31 AM
I will wait for the official answer from someone who knows what the rules are not just coping and pasting what is printed some where.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on October 19, 2010, 10:44:34 AM
That is what I would recommend too.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: miketsmith on October 19, 2010, 10:58:51 AM
You may want to ask James this question. I heard thru the grape vine that the rule may change for the Jr division in 2011. This past season we lost a lot of Jr drivers half way thru the season and it hurt the numbers toward the mid to end of the season. Several drivers lost a good chance of maybe winning or having good finishes because of the existing rule. I also heard the other organization is looking hard at this also. I heard that maybe if you turn 9 after April 1st, then you can stay in the Jr for the remainder of that year. Don't quote me on this for I just heard this and think it would help the Jr division. We are moving up either way even though we have another year of Jr to run.



Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on October 19, 2010, 11:20:13 AM
I definitely agree that is a rule that could be adjusted in the future, but I think a point that is often missed is that a driver that turns 9 during the season can move up for the first race. 

There are good and bad to both situations.  For example, a driver that turns 9 mid year but has raced since he was 5 years old would benefit more by being moved to Sr at the beginning of the year because their skill level should be on par with the Sr division more than the Jr division.  At the same time a kid that starts racing when he/she is 8 probably would benefit from staying in Jr that extra time because that jump to Sr is a huge jump.

If they do change it for next year, I would like to see some consideration for how long the kids have been racing.  We need to help those kids that start late because they are facing a huge learning curve.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Jeff Lapcevich on October 19, 2010, 11:57:38 AM
I think that part of the problem with picking a cut off date other than the childs birthday is that other parts of the country race in different seasons so what works here in the east may not be the ticket in California or Arizona. Either way, there is always going to be someone who benefits and someone who loses I think.  I have four children, 2 with birthdays in the spring and two late fall so I figure it all works out.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: dmmc on October 19, 2010, 01:50:23 PM
I agree with Mr. Freitas on this one.  If they can handle it, move them up when they are 8.  My 11 year old's birthday is in July, so we had to make this decision a few years ago.  His first year in sr. was rough, but he learned a lot, and actually got involved in fewer crashes because the sr. class drivers were ,for the most part, more experienced.   A lot of equipment gets torn up in jr. classes due to inexperienced drivers.  If the jump is going to make a big enough points difference to cost the driver a championship, then he or she could have moved up at 8 and been just fine.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: CrewChief6 on October 19, 2010, 02:17:12 PM
You may want to ask James this question. I heard thru the grape vine that the rule may change for the Jr division in 2011. This past season we lost a lot of Jr drivers half way thru the season and it hurt the numbers toward the mid to end of the season. Several drivers lost a good chance of maybe winning or having good finishes because of the existing rule. I also heard the other organization is looking hard at this also. I heard that maybe if you turn 9 after April 1st, then you can stay in the Jr for the remainder of that year. Don't quote me on this for I just heard this and think it would help the Jr division. We are moving up either way even though we have another year of Jr to run.



You're moving up too??? Bummer.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on October 19, 2010, 02:29:29 PM
Tell me about it Lyra!  I really hope some new drivers show up soon or AJ and Isaak aren't going to have many kids in their classes.  I might have to seriously consider picking up a 160 for AJ since he will be 8, but then that is one less in Jr Honda. :(


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: CrewChief6 on October 19, 2010, 02:35:49 PM
Tell me about it Lyra!  I really hope some new drivers show up soon or AJ and Isaak aren't going to have many kids in their classes.  I might have to seriously consider picking up a 160 for AJ since he will be 8, but then that is one less in Jr Honda. :(

Isaak's only 7. We can't even race 160 for another 9 months! Plans for next year will be ... interesting.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Karnes29 on October 19, 2010, 06:04:37 PM
Hey sfreita20 looks like to me you can't say anything right on here. LOL


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on October 19, 2010, 06:09:46 PM
Yeah, I don't know anything...I am just lucky to have drivers that know how to drive so they make me look good.   ;D


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: miketsmith on October 19, 2010, 06:38:19 PM
Yes, we ran our 160 last week in our local race and Chandler actually drove very well. As much as people told us we were crazy for getting into the Jr Stock, that really helped him more than anything. The Animal class is another good class, but it still isn't as good as running the Jr Stock class. We just think that for him, moving on up will only help him. As the other gentleman said, if you can run in Sr early than do it. We will obviously miss running against all of you but will certainly watch as each of you race. Chandler really runs the Lt W/F very good. He has picked up on the throttle control quick. He can only practice it unless I can get a wavier for him to run it next year. I think you have to be 9 to run in competition. If I am wrong than someone please let me know.

Thanks,
Mike Smith


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on October 19, 2010, 10:02:32 PM
Mike, 

I asked James about the WF rule just last week.  The rulebook states that a driver can run WF at 9 years old and after a year of "unrestricted" racing.  However we asked the question last week about Sr Animal counting toward the one year even though it is a restricted class.  We were told it would count and it also will be updated for the 2011 rulebook to reflect that.

See ya in a few days.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: miketsmith on November 02, 2010, 02:34:18 PM
I guess I have to apply for a wavier for him to run the LT. W/F next year. I know my local club will allow it, but on the National level I guess I have to go to James for a ruling. I wonder how the JR. Stock bears in all of this. He has ran it for two years.

Thanks,


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: streihawk8 on November 02, 2010, 10:29:53 PM
It doesn't....it is a Restricted class!


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: wesracing on November 03, 2010, 07:15:18 AM
Just for some info, the age rule was talked about at the USAC competition meeting and what will happen next year is if your child turns 9 before june 30 than you will have to either start the sr. class from the beginning of the year or move up on you birthday. If you turn 9 after that date than you will be allowed to finish the year in the jr. class. I think USAC is working on the 2011 rulebook now and hopefully will release it with the changes soon. James would have to verify the exact date and that this will be put in place for the 2011 racing season.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on November 03, 2010, 11:14:47 AM
I like that change, but if that is going to be added, I would really like to see something in there regarding how long a driver has raced if they are going to stay in the Jr class that whole year.  If the rule is just going to move the date to June 30, then you could have a kid that turns 5 in July that races a few Rookie races and then move up to the competitive Jr classes (Honda, Animal and/or Stock) and races 4 complete seasons as a Junior.  In that scenario the kid would be better served by moving to Sr, but the parents aren't going to do so because their little future NASCAR star is going to be able to win a bunch of races that fourth year.

If the kid has raced competitively for three seasons (full or partial) then they should move up at the beginning of the year in which they turn nine.  If a kid has raced competitively for less than two seasons then they should be given an option to stay in the Jr division if they turn 9 during the season.

Just my two cents on it.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Karnes29 on November 03, 2010, 12:35:06 PM
I Know this is going to open up a can of worms but here it goes.What about only allowing the Sr Kids race for so long and then maybe move up?My son is 9 and this is his first year of racing and he races senior honda, Most of the season i looked at the age of the kids he was racing against and it was 11 to 13 yrs old and almost all of them had been racing for 5 or 6 years.I know a few kids that was racing in the rookie class with my son moved up to the heavy honda class because the car count was to big.I'm not trying to take the car count away or talent as far as that goes because my son liked racing against these kids and i think it helped him out alot.Regardless on how we do next year I think we are going to try the 160s along with the Animal. I don't really want to argue about this on this site, I just wanted to give my thoughts.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: wesracing on November 03, 2010, 12:42:14 PM
I feel that if the kid stays in the junior class that 4 th year that you are talking about then that is on the handlers of that kid. They would only be hurting the kids advancement by holding him back and that is totally on them and I don't feel that is USAC's job to police that.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on November 03, 2010, 12:59:16 PM
That is like saying if everyone, everywhere used common sense we wouldn't need any laws.  It might be a true statement, but it is only true in fantasy land.  Tell me you don't know of handlers at just about every track that would leave their kid in it regardless so he/she could amass more "meaningless" wins.  That would hurt other kids and the sport.

USAC wouldn't have to police anything, just add a provision to the rule and the clubs will enforce the rules.  It keeps the sport more fair for everyone involved.  I personally don't have "a dog in this hunt" because it really won't impact my driver either way, I just think picking a new date in the middle of the year isn't really solving the problem as it exists today, it is just moving the problem up a few months.

A real solution to the problem would be one that not only counts on age, but also on experience to determine when a kid should have to move up.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Jeff Lapcevich on November 04, 2010, 07:33:44 AM
You guys lost me when you got going about hurting the kid by spending too much time in Jr.  I think that's true for novice but not JH, maybe you could explain? And as for the "meaningless wins", you can't run Sr at the club and go back to Jr for the Grands and Regionals in QMA and I think it's the same for MWT and GenNext Tour in USAC; or do you classify them as 'meaningless' as well?


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: wesracing on November 04, 2010, 08:15:22 AM
I shouldn't have worded that like that. I am not taking anything away from junior honda. We were there last year and it is a tough class. As for kids staying there to get wins, if that is what they choose to do than that is totally their choice and when they entered in there first year, I am sure there was an older group of kids that was hanging out just to get those wins so I feel it comes full circle. Personally, I feel it is not hurting the other kids in junior honda for the older kids to stay in junior honda just for the wins because I strongly feel that the kids are only as good as their competition therefore an older kid staying in junior honda would if anything help the other juniors in my opinion.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Jeff Lapcevich on November 04, 2010, 09:53:48 AM
Right on Wes


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: actireman on November 04, 2010, 09:57:21 AM
I don't know why some parents think that moving thier kids up faster will make them better racers. You have to balance moving up and success together for it to work. You have all the opportunity in the world to make your child better and still achieve success. When Michael was 5 in JH we got our teeth kicked in. Age 6 was alittle better. Age 7 we were finally getting close to being on top of the pile. I am sure he is looking forward to age 8. We ran JH and JS at 5, the same at 6. At 7 we ran JH, JS, and LT MOD. The purpose for LT MOD was to make him better and also allow him to still have success in the JR classes. At age 8 he will run JH, JS, LT MOD, LT 160. He will get his teeth kicked in again in two classes and hopefully have success in the other two. What kid wants to loose every week, success makes confidence and confidence is something I want my son to have. After JR, he won't be on top of the pile again until he is 12. So am I suppose to put him in a big car at 11 so he can keep losing? We are not going to NASCAR like most of these kids, but we are going to have alot of fun and have great memories.  
Mike Clancy  


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on November 04, 2010, 10:02:35 AM
I will try to explain my stance better...

If they move the date to June and don't put anything in the rules regarding experience you will have drivers whose birthday is in July that can race competitively in Jr Honda for 4 complete seasons because they can finish out the one in which they turn 9 halfway through instead of jumping up to Sr Honda/Animal.  My argument is that if a driver has raced competitively in Jr Honda for 3 seasons, their experience should make them competitive enough to race in Sr Honda/Animal.  However if their handler can leave them in Jr Honda/Animal for a whole other season and get wins because they are racing a bunch of 6 and 7 years olds with far less experience, those really aren't wins that are helping that driver gain a lot of experience, therefore "meaningless" in terms of teaching the driver about how to be a good driver.

Yes, it will help those 6 and 7 year old drivers become better drivers by racing against older kids that are better, but at the same time the confidence level of those 6 and 7 year olds is going to suffer and that could hurt the sport if they decide to throw in the towel too.  

There is a big difference between the attention span of an 8 year old and a 6 year old and in some sports it might not be that obvious, but anyone that has been around Quarter Midgets and seen 6 year old Rookies and 8 year old Rookies, knows what I am saying.  When they go to Jr Honda, a 6 year old that has been racing since he/she was 5 has a fighting chance against an 8 year old that has been racing for a year and that makes the class pretty fair.  You make that 6 year old race against a 9 year old that has 3 years under his/her belt and it isn't a fair fight at all.

I believe just moving the date, without any consideration for experience is only moving the problem without really fixing it.  Then I guess it depends on what everyone perceives as the real problem too.  To me the jump to Sr Honda/Animal is real nightmare for a kid that has only been in the sport for a year or so and is the real issue we should be trying to address.  If we can move the date and give a kid in this situation more time, then I think we should.

I hope we aren't trying to address a kid that has raced three years in Jr Honda, but in the fourth year they turned 9 two months before they season ended so they couldn't run for the championship.  That driver should have been moved to Sr at the beginning of the year if they wanted to run for a championship.

My son's teammate is a perfect example of a driver we should try to help with this rule change.  He had only a handful of Jr Honda races before the beginning of this season even though he turned 9 with two races left at our home track.  At the beginning of the year we had to decide between Sr Honda or Jr Honda and it was a tough decision.  We didn't feel comfortable throwing him into Sr Honda after only a few competitive races so we raced him in Jr Honda pretty much knowing he would have to skip the last few races which meant his chances of winning the championship were almost none.  

We should try to help drivers that get a late start, because if we don't some will duck out of the sport once they jump into Sr Honda because it is so tough, but at the same time we shouldn't open it up for other kids to stick around and race a lower division just to collect stickers when they could be competitive enough to move up.

Sorry so long...but I hope that better explains my stance on this topic.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: actireman on November 04, 2010, 10:20:50 AM
I understood before, I don't agree. Meaningless wins don't exist. When you win a race that means you beat everyone there. Some races have the best in the country there, some have have very few. My son loves every checkered flag, and he has never told me that was a meaningless race dad. Maybe you should start looking thru your sons eyes, you will probably see something way different.
Mike Clancy


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sprintcar39 on November 04, 2010, 11:22:37 AM
My Thoughts -

The problem is "racing" for "points". And we race for points and wins.

You HAVE to run for points to get people to attend all the races.

So there is really two issues here. Racing for fun/wins and racing for points/championships. The age cutoff effects both of these issues.

I also agree that if the date is moved it just moves the issue to another date.

It is very cool to see the amount of good constructive posts and comments on this subject and many others on the USAC .25 forum.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on November 04, 2010, 11:25:39 AM
It is funny you should say that because I am looking at it through my son's eyes.  As a 7 year old he had a great year this year even though it was his first full season of competitive racing.  Winning the Gen Next race in Tampa with 4 of the top 5 drivers in the National points in the field was one of his proudest moments as it should be.  Had there been some other drivers there that turned nine during this season, he might not have experienced that.  Letting 9 year olds stay in Jr for a fourth season of competitive racing will cost 6 and 7 year olds wins because a 9 year old with three seasons of competitive racing should be moved up and I don't think that is right for the sport!

Again it all depends on what you are trying to achieve...


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Jeff Lapcevich on November 04, 2010, 12:02:48 PM
Freitas, letting the nine year old stick around will cost the 6 or 7 years old a win maybe, but they have a couple more years to get them. And I agree also that the date change isn't really effective either. If someone starts late, they start late. I think they still have to put in the time and pay their dues before they start to reap the rewards. If my son is 8 and decides he want to play basketball for the first time and tries out for a basketball team that includes kids 5-9 and he is green and doesn't make the cut; we soak it up, work at it and come back next year and try again, not find a league that caters to 8 year olds who haven't played before. What do you do with the 12 year olds that have run Sr fo three years and are dominating over the 9 years olds that just moved up or 10 year olds that just started?


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Barr on November 04, 2010, 12:14:50 PM
So what is the difference If a 9 year old is racing against 12 and 13 year olds? He is going to get his butt handed to him. There is no difference.  I have seen 5 and 6 year old drivers come in to Jr Honda and win at regional level. I have also seen 9 year old kids win in Sr. Honda. I just don't think it is fair to a child who is 8 years old. That races half a season in Jr. Honda and has to be forced to move up because he turn 9 in the middle of the season.  How much more experence is the driver from the moment he truns 9? I think they sould be allowed to raec the full season. It doesnt matter if he has raced 3 or more seasons. No difference if he moves to Sr. Some of them kids have been in that classs a long time. Jr. Honda is not a learning class. In my opinion you are only as good as your compitition


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Jeff Lapcevich on November 04, 2010, 12:45:32 PM
Chad I agree with you but I think it's just one of those things where there has to be a cut off and unfortunately it effects different kids differently. It also has different implications on the west coast where their season is different than ours. I've got four kids with birthdays all over the place so some will luck out, others not so lucky if they go by birthdate. If they go by a specific date, some will luck out, others not so lucky. See you in a couple weeks!


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on November 04, 2010, 12:56:29 PM
I've got four kids with birthdays all over the place so some will luck out, others not so lucky if they go by birthdate. If they go by a specific date, some will luck out, others not so lucky. See you in a couple weeks!

I totally agree!  So the question is what are we trying to fix by moving it from birthday to the middle of the year?  Are we just trying to change a few kids luck?  If so, leave it alone.  If it is going to change, then my proposal makes skill/experience count some more too.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Barr on November 04, 2010, 01:09:29 PM
Jeff I guess I never really looked at it that way. Thats a good point! See ya soon!


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Phil on November 04, 2010, 02:16:56 PM
 I agree with Mr. Lapcevich.

 Also 1 year non-restricted/sr.animal before W/F or AA needs to be adheared to also at all levels.

JMO   


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Jeff Lapcevich on November 04, 2010, 03:32:51 PM
I totally agree!  So the question is what are we trying to fix by moving it from birthday to the middle of the year?  Are we just trying to change a few kids luck?  If so, leave it alone.  If it is going to change, then my proposal makes skill/experience count some more too.
[/quote]Right, so I say leave it alone.  It's not a perfect system but IMO as good as it's going to get.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: acracing on November 04, 2010, 04:29:59 PM
I agree with what you guys are saying but just leave it as is.There would be no change other than a date??  As for winning being meaningless?? I think if you can win in this sport you better enjoy it and never say it was meaningless. My son has followed alot of kids and when he doesn't win that makes us both try harder.
Chad Wise
  


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on November 04, 2010, 05:25:12 PM
We are saying don't change it at all.  If changing the date to the middle of the year just changes who gets lucky and who doesn't, why change it?

I agree with you on enjoying wins!  My comment about meaningless wins was to say that a 9 year old that is in their fourth season of racing getting wins in Jr because they are racing 6 and 7 year olds is almost meaningless.  It is kind of like Kyle Busch winning truck series races.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: miketsmith on November 04, 2010, 08:51:08 PM
I hear everyone here speaking thier minds. Most have good valid points and some are just opions. This was only our second full year of racing quarter midgets and we will not get near four years of competition before having to move up. Michael is right, every win to the child does have a meaning to that child. We also, may never see Nascar but we will have as much fun as possible. I will see to it that he is equipped with the best equipment there is so that he can at least run competitive. I have heard that the date may be April and not June. What ever the date may be, as Eric said, running for points and championships will always take presence over the fun. We should all be having with our children and making the memories of a life time.

Mike Smith


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: TQ97 on November 04, 2010, 09:46:49 PM
Agreed, lots of good points, and to give you a little background, I am watching very interested with what USAC does regarding this.   I proposed an RCP in region 4 this year that reads very similar to this proposed change.  While my son would benefit being a September birthday, I'd much rather have a grands or USAC national win than a club points title, and with him playing baseball and basketball and thus missing numerous club races, we aren't points racers anyways. 

So my RCP, is not a selfish one.  Rather it's one of whats best for the growth of the sport.   Eric hits the nail on the head in a lot of ways, eliminate points racing and this is no big deal.  Except for Mr. Clancy's point of confidence and success which is what I think this is all about.  Think about this.....How hard is it to get a new kid and family into quarter midget racing versus how hard is it to keep one in the sport?  You have 2 scenarios in this sport.  Typically a 5 year old starts as early as possible, maybe their family was already involved, maybe not.  I totally understand the argument that this child if by 6 or 7 is winning regularly could be very dominating as a 9 yr old JH.  If they are that good, and have been, the handler is probably going to move them up anyways, so nothing changes, they still have that option. 

Now, let's try this scenario 6 yr old runs a full year of junior novice turning 7 in the fall (some will argue thats too much time in JN...again, using Mr. Clancy's point, you have to balance confidence and challenges at this age, we had just 1 junior novice move up all year at Mini Indy at the end of the year to JH, and we regularly had 10+ JN weekly).  First real competitive time in JH or other Jr classes is in the spring, doesn't set the world on fire, takes most of the year to build up the confidence and by the fall when they turn 8 is starting to "get it".  So the next year they turn 9 before the year is up and that confidence that took a year to build and is just starting to materialize is completely destroyed as they are thrown into sr. classes to run against 12 and 13 and even 14yr olds.  How many of those kids do we lose at that point and decide, I don't want to do this?  How many kids if they had a little bit more time to build confidence up would stick with it?  Why does every other sport like Little League utilize a mid year date as a cut off rather than the birthday?   

Jeff makes a great point about starting basketball at 8 yrs old.  I would like to point out one small difference IMO....that 8 yr old while they are starting new will be on a team, not by themselves.  That team very well may be successful which can help to build that confidence for the beginner.  That 7 yr old novice who doesnt get into JH until they are 8 and then gets thrown into Sr. classes is by themselves. 



Just my 2 cents


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: slowpoke on November 04, 2010, 10:15:43 PM
"If it's not broke then don't fix it"  In my opinion it is not broke and no matter what you do you are going to have a handful of people that want something else.
 As far as people leaving the sport I think it is more a matter of finances and the commitment involved to be competetive and win in the Sr. classes.We all know that you have to work on these cars and setups more than just the morning of the race.
 I hope USAC leaves this one alone.
 


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Jeff Lapcevich on November 05, 2010, 09:30:19 AM
A.J. my reference wrt to the basketball player was meant to be an 8 year old who didn't make the team, not a team that lost.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: TQ97 on November 05, 2010, 09:58:48 AM
Sorry Jeff,  I misunderstood.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: crew chief on November 05, 2010, 11:28:17 AM
I THINK WE SHOULD JUST LEAVE IT ALONE  MY 2 CENTS


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: wesracing on November 06, 2010, 12:13:17 AM
Just thought of the perfect idea. Let's not seperate jr's and sr's and just have 1 honda 120 class with a 12 year old age limit! ;D :D Just kidding guys!


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: A and J Racing on November 07, 2010, 12:17:37 PM
I got a quick one for you and tell me how you guys would handle this.. This has happened, or will have happened after next weekend, twice at our local club. We get a child who is a Junior Rookie at 8, graduates to Junior Honda this year and ran about 3 or 4 races as Junior Honda and then got moved into Sr Honda. Now we have another one next weekend, same situation started driving last year and moved from Junior Rookie to Junior Honda has 3 races under their belt and now has to be moved to Sr Honda at our next race because of their birthday. Just wondering some opinions on this. I agree with Scott that some sort of experience has to play a part because both these kids have only been running for approximately 1 year and only few races in the competitve class, and now we are basically throwing them to the sharks..


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: GB3 on November 07, 2010, 03:11:16 PM
Practice Practice Practice eventually they're going to the sharks anyway


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on November 07, 2010, 03:30:46 PM
The exact scenario that A & J is pointing out is the real issue in my opinion.  If there are any changes to the age rule by USAC, I really hope it is to try to help a kid in that exact scenario, not just to allow some kids to run another full season in Jr Honda/Animal/Stock.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: wesracing on November 07, 2010, 04:07:48 PM
I would look at how long they were in rookie. I feel like if they run 8 months in rookie and then want to complain because they only get 2-4 junior honda races before having to move up to senior then that is something that should have been looked at a little closer at the first of the year and maybe come out of rookie a little quicker. I understand there are some scenarios that are not favorable for the racer but I think they have to understand that when they decide to start racing at 8. I am not saying anything bad about starting at age 8. That is when my son started last year he was 8. I knew the situation we were looking at so as soon as we got 3 rookie show in, I immediately moved him to junior honda so he would have at least 3/4 of a year in a competitive class before we had to go to senior. I feel the racer and handler should feel when they start at 8,they are normally behind everyone else on the track and it is up to them to get caught up!


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: slowpoke on November 07, 2010, 08:05:56 PM
I know our Jr. Animal is as fast or faster than a lot of  Sr. Honda's. I had my 7 yr. old son out practicing in his Jr. animal with a group of Sr. Honda's a few weeks ago and he was running just as fast and driving just as well as they were so I am confident he will be just fine when he moves up.He tells me the car is more fun and easier to drive than his Jr. Honda car because it has more power, having said this my point is that the kids will have more fun going faster with more power. As handlers we have to up our game on the setups and make sure you get out and practice as much as possible.
 I don't want to see the rule changed just to satisfy a few. 
 If a kid starts racing as a late 8 yr. old rookie then maybe it would be best to practice with the blue plate all the time instead of the red plate.Either way it all comes down to practice as much as you can,I know when we got started at 5 yrs.old we were at the track practicing at least 3 days a week and that is what you have to do as a driver and handler to improve.If you practice ,the wins will come eventually.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Jeff Lapcevich on November 08, 2010, 09:00:41 AM
I think Wes hit the nail on the head.  If you start at 8, you've got some catching up to do.  On the bright side, be thankful you're trying to figure it out with an 8 year old and not a 5 year old.  ;)


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: A and J Racing on November 09, 2010, 02:09:43 AM
Why not a ruling of something like if you have competed in say more then 60% or 75% of that classes races then you can finish the year.. If you are going to start say Jr Honda and only are going to complete less then the 60 or 75% then you have the choice to either start the year in say Jr Honda and then move up, or start the year in Sr Honda....
I agree with wes to a point, I think it is hard to say move up sooner if the kid isnt ready. I think in some instances, like ours for instance, the kids should have been either left in jr rookie then moved to sr rookie, or possibly moved to sr rookie sooner. I think it allows some parents more time to work with their kids on their own for the jump to the next class..


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sprintcar39 on November 09, 2010, 09:36:34 AM
why not say if you turn 9 ...lets say after August 1 then you can finish out the year in the same class? Kinda like AJ said now you are 3/4 of the way thru the season?


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on November 09, 2010, 11:47:55 AM
why not say if you turn 9 ...lets say after August 1 then you can finish out the year in the same class? Kinda like AJ said now you are 3/4 of the way thru the season?

In Ohio you are 3/4 through the season, but in FL probably only halfway through since we race until late November. :)  There are flaws with no matter how you do it. 

Like I said before it depends on what the desired outcome really is.  Is it to keep more kids in Jr in 2011?  Is it to help kids that got a later start?  Is it because we feel kids aren't really ready to move to Sr at 9?  Each one of these scenarios has a different way in which a change should be implemented to address them...Just moving the date up in the calendar or to Jan 1, just changes which kids are lucky and which are not.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: wesracing on November 09, 2010, 12:19:16 PM
Honestly, here is what I feel it is for. Everyone comes to race because of points, right? It is a known fact that if you don't have points, then cars will not show up! How many cars didn't run the national series or a regional series because they were gonna have to jump classes midway through the year? By putting a date in mid season that would allow kids with late birthdays to go ahead and finish the season in the class they started in, don't you think that would encourage more cars to show up to these events throughout the entire year if the junior that is gonna turn 9 in August knows he can run every national race that year in junior honda? Look, these rules are guidelines for the national series, that is why most of our clubs have bylaws, presidents, rookie comittees, and a board of directors to look at these individual situations and USAC has already told us to do what we want at club level. They want us to do what works best for us at a club level where we have 40-50 cars and everyone knows everyones situation a little better. Whenever you try to run 250-300 cars through in a single show, you have to have these guidelines in place and USAC is looking at what is best for the kids at a national level. So the desired outcome is to improve car counts in junior honda and do what is best for the junior honda class at the national level!

  A and J, I would like to hear your guidelines on when you think a kid is ready to move from the rookie class. I feel that whenever they know the lights and flags and how to line-up and somewhat hold a line, they are ready.  I am not one to push a kid out of rookie class but I do feel most people leave their kids in it too long. I don't think a time should be put on it but I know some people think the kid has to be passing cars and winning before they move their kids up and at that point, they have been there too long!


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on November 09, 2010, 12:42:50 PM
So the desired outcome is to improve car counts in junior honda and do what is best for the junior honda class at the national level!

This year, Jr Honda had 13 drivers that competed in the required 5 events to qualify for National ranking and Sr Honda had 15 drivers that competed in the required 5 events to qualify.

We might have challenges going forward with the lack of Jr drivers, but the reason is not the age rule.  For example in Tampa we haven't had a test drive day in over two and a half years...changing the age rule to address this isn't fixing the problem, just putting a band aid on it.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: wesracing on November 09, 2010, 12:53:35 PM
 I have said what I thought and I know some people don't agree with me and that is fine. All I do know is there is nothing anyone can do that will make 100% of the people satisfied so I guess I am done on this topic but to USAC, I think it is a good move to let jr. hondas finish the year in jr honda if they are 8 for the first part of the year!


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: CrewChief6 on November 09, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
As for transitioning 8-year-olds to Senior, how about this: if you're turning 9 during the season, you can stay in Junior Honda for up to 6 races, but have to do this within a year since you started racing. That way, you don't linger in rookie to take advantage of the extra races, and birthdays are out of the equation. Obviously, that means you can't run for points if you stay. But if the driver safety is more important (which it should be), then this cushion would be available.

OR

Stagger the Junior Animal class age and make it go up to age 10, so they can get some seat time in a faster class without being fed to the big sharks. Just little sharks.  :D

As for graduating from rookie, I have one plea: pls make sure the driver has good reaction time and knows obstacle avoidance. We recently got hammered full speed on yellow from someone who was almost a lap back after we got wrecked. Obstacle dodging practices should be included in training.

As for Scott's point on Juniors, I agree. Can't put a band-aid on the economy and such.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: CrewChief6 on November 09, 2010, 01:00:03 PM
One more suggestion:

Make Junior Honda 5-10 and Senior Honda from 9 and up. But if you raced a full season in Junior Honda, then you have to move up at 9.



Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Jeff Lapcevich on November 09, 2010, 02:48:46 PM
Wes, this might be a topic for a different thread but I agree with you totally on time spent in novice.  I think prolonged exposure there is a detriment. As far as the relationship between points racing and car counts, I agree as well but there is something really special at Oaklane. They don't run for points yet get probably one of the largest weekly car counts in the country in either usac or qma and the competition is fierce. I have no stats to back it up but it wouldn't surprise me if it is the largest weekly show. Maybe toeknee could chime in here and explain why that is. What are they doing different there? It sure seems to work.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: RBurns17 on November 09, 2010, 03:36:30 PM
Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel with this. I will agree, it's not the best situation, but anything you do isn't going to really improve it. Everything I've heard proposed is essentially the same principal they have now, just with a cutoff date moved down the line. So make it better for a kid who has a birthday in July? What about a kid born in June, have things improved for him at all? Right now things are cut and dry, when you turn 9 you move up. Changing it to what I've heard a few people propose is kind of odd. If you turn 9 before this date you still have to move up but if you turn 9 after it you can stay down and finish out the year?


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: acracing on November 09, 2010, 06:52:00 PM
  What is the difference if a kid joins at 9 and has to move straight to sr honda or a kid that starts at 8 and runs a partial year in jr and moves to sr honda? Do we believe a kid that goes from rookie and then to jr honda in one year is going to be chasing national points? If the kid is that good then they should move to sr honda at 9. If there is a problem with a kid at 9 to move straight to sr honda due to ability than they should be able to be in sr rookie until they feel they should move to sr honda. I think at the jr levels it is the PARENTS that are worried about the points anyways. I bet you could ask numerous 5-8 year old drivers about points vs winning  and you will find being competitive and winning is more important to them. I think that is what Jeff is saying about Oaklane not having points just hard racing.

   
Chad Wise   


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Toeknee on November 09, 2010, 07:28:43 PM
Jeff, My 8 years at Oaklane I have seen an average weekly count of 125+ cars. This year is the first time I have ever seen less than 100 cars in on weekend and a few years ago it was over 200. I think the bottomline for us is competition. We have never raced for points only for the weekly results and the competition is fierce!

I think the age thing is what it is and should not be changed. It is the luck of the birth and Bubba has a January birthday so it has worked out fine for us. He spent 5 in novice, 6-8 in jr Honda & Jr Stock. At 9 he got his lunch handed to him by 12-16 year old Sr Honda and Lt 160 studs and this has made him the strong 12 year old driver that he is in Honda & Deco classes.

I think the only thing that could be done(don't know if I would do it or not) is 3 age groups after novice(rookie) 5-7, 8-11 & 12 and up with different weights. A 5 & 10 or 9 & 15 year old should not be on the same track.

Hope to see some of you at Oaklane next year for the best racing in the country and  I hope to hit some USAC tracks after the Grands.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: A and J Racing on November 09, 2010, 10:08:09 PM
The reason I stated a % of the races was to help with all the regions of our sport. I understand that we run way more out her in California then some do back east. I was more chiming in to help some of those kids that arent ready and for safety reasons of those who are in Sr Honda.

Wes I dont have a forsure way of answering when a child is ready, I think it is on a case by case basis. My little guy got moved out of Jr Rookie cause ever one said he was too fast. He would win races by 2 laps yet wouldnt pass anyone on the inside, and he would have issues sometimes lining up till we stared making racecievers mandatory. I dont believe he was ready to move up at that point just cause he would win races. We spent a lot of time working with him and my oldest son so that he is a much safer driver in Jr Honda and in turn has become a faster and better driver.. He did 4 or 5 races in Jr rookie with a winter break inbetween then moved to Jr Honda. Now next year he will start Jr Honda and he will turn 9 in August. Why not let him finish the last 3 races in Jr Honda? Keep in mind im a little selfish cause I cant stand the thought of handling 2 cars in Sr Honda at the moment.. I am more worried abour a driver who lets say starts QM racing at 8 in the year they turn 9. Essentially we end up sending those drivers from Jr Rookie to Sr Honda if they moved up to Jr Honda too quickly they only get a few races in that class before having to run Sr Honda.



Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: wesracing on November 10, 2010, 01:35:19 AM
I guess I just feel the kids should be able to finish what they started. Every sport has age cutoff dates whether it be basketball, baseball, football, or soccer. They all have a certain date that if you meet the age requirements by that date then you move up to the next level of play. This graduation to the next level takes place at the start of the season. You don't see baseball leagues forcing kids to move from minor league to major league in the middle of the season. I do not have any personal interest in this whether it goes one way or another and I know this sport is a little different than others and it is hard to compare it any other sport. I guess whatever USAC decides will be it and we will all live under those rules. As I said before I have no personal interest in the issue but it was interesting hearing so many views and arguments one way or another. Chad, whether it is the kids or PARENTS running for points, the parents have to take the kid there and spend the money so even if it is the parents worried about points, it still will affect car counts.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: Jeff Lapcevich on November 10, 2010, 08:41:21 AM
It's the same deal everywhere. Just leave it alone. Chad, I don't have your number. Give me a call when you get a chance 905-971-1510.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: clouse55 on November 10, 2010, 10:30:13 AM
 Easiest way to fix it is when your wife is expecting to give birth to your future racer and the due date is in middle of summer is to just have her suck it in till Oct.   LMAO!!!


 


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: magjagmotorsports on November 10, 2010, 01:09:53 PM
The crops must be harvested, Clouse is back!!!


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: wesracing on November 18, 2010, 12:15:43 AM
Huh, I don't think you are gonna get the answer you are looking for here! I did not say anything about a "meaningless win"! Sorry to disappoint you but it really wasn't me GBR! If I said it, I would tell you I did!


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: ncracerdad on November 29, 2010, 08:09:47 PM
Ive sat back here and read this discussion now for a few weeks.  How can this possible age change be a bad thing?  First of all my son turned 9 in Oct of this year, so this rule doesn't apply to me or anyone I know for that matter.  Mr Freitas, it seems your the one thats the most active on this issue?  Im not here to start anything with you sir, my son raced against AJ I think the opening weekend this year in NC.  Aj seemed to be well on his way to having a great racing season.  My question to all those that don't like this possible change is this; How can every other major youth sporting organization have cut off dates, and it be wrong for USAC to try to follow suit.  My daughter played softball and had a cut off date of Jan 1. That is just one of many or actually all youth sports.  Except when we get a bunch of parents that want little Johnny to either not have to move up or get to stay racing against or not against a kid that does better, or whatever the situation would be.. I say lets get USAC .25 up to speed with other very very successfull and larger youth sports and have a cut off date, Im not affected by this, but its my thoughts. Mr Freitas, good luck to you and your son this year

Jim


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: miketsmith on November 29, 2010, 09:01:05 PM
Although we could run Jr next year, we are moving on up to Sr and take our lickings. I have already purchased the new cars and engines to do so. I still think and agree with so many on this subject that there should be a cut-off date. No matter what happens, there will always be some that like it and some that doesn't. Good luck to everyone no matter what division you end up in next year.


Title: Re: Class Age in regards to a Points Season
Post by: sfreitas20 on November 29, 2010, 09:20:43 PM
Thanks for the well wishes Jim.  I get to sit in front of a computer for 10 hours a day for my job so I get to be active on the forums.  I don't know if that is good or bad though. :)