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General Chat => USAC => Topic started by: DonRacer on July 16, 2008, 05:38:44 PM



Title: Unlimited Engine
Post by: DonRacer on July 16, 2008, 05:38:44 PM
Hi Everyone,

This is a copy of an E-Mail I sent to Mr. Miller and I would appreciate opinions from You on this subject.


Hi Kevin,
I would like to know if USAC has given any consideration to an open Engine-Fuel rule for sprint cars.
Myself and other's have conferred with several professional engine builders and they agree that with
an open rule the cost of engine's could be reduced as much as 50%, as long as you keep the current
tire rules.
This could have many benefits for USAC and non-wing sprint racing in general.

1. It puts the low budget creative guys back in the game.
2. Gets rid of the 305-360-410 fragmented mess that is sprint car racing today.
3. Sets sprint car racing apart from all other "Spec Engine Series Racing" like F-1,
    IRL, NASCAR, NHRA etc.
4. Increase's sponsorship opportunities from SEMA members, because a much
   wider variety of speed equipment would be used with an open rule.
5. Could very well be the "Hook" that gets the youth of today involved.

To be clear on what an open Engine-Fuel rule is;

1. Any Engine Displacement or Configuration
2. Any Fuel (Including Nitromethane and or Nitrous Oxide)
3. Any Aspiration



I would appreciate hearing your opinion on this.
Sincerely,
Don Flanders

Kevin's private response goes her ""

My Re:
The difference between non-wing and the outlaws is that in non-wing racing
we are overpowering the track with the horsepower we have now, ask any
top team.
  That's the reason its so much cheaper to build an unlimited engine is,
you are not really building unlimited horsepower, you only have to build about
what we currently have. Ask any top engine builder if this is true.
  So the unlimited engine is in reality two things, a publicity and marketing tool
that gives the public the illusion of unlimited horsepower racing and a cost cutting
tool that would help the sport grow Nation-wide.


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: DonRacer on July 21, 2008, 05:13:43 PM
No one out there with some understanding of "Sprint Car Mechanics" has an opinion on this subject?
LOL
Don


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: DonRacer on July 24, 2008, 04:11:42 PM
Want to start an argument with a gearhead? Say that horsepower is more important than torque. Or that torque is more important than horsepower. The resulting fact-free emotionalism, random shouting, and absence of listening will be rivaled by little this side of "discussions" regarding Roe v. Wade. To paraphrase the great philosopher Jeff Foxworthy: "If you can argue about torque and horsepower for more than an hour, you might be a gearhead."

-Joe Hollingsworth / autoMedia.com


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: Robinette on July 25, 2008, 11:46:21 AM
I think it would be a great idea.


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: racer28 on July 27, 2008, 11:37:39 PM
i was thinking about getting into sprintcars. we are a focus team currently. knowing very little about the inner finance of sprint car racing i am having alittle trouble understanding what you mean. i think that if the rules allow and engine and any fuel you very quickly have a money race on your hands. and what are you going to do with nitrous on a oval track. i am by far not an engine expert however i think the air to fuel ratio of nitro methane is like 1.2 to 1 or something like that. so in a thirty lap feature you will use some crazy amount of fuel. and i don't think i would like to be next to a nitro fueled supercharged engine if they blow up anything close to a drag car. i didn't think sprint engines were all that much money, is there something i don't know about. do the current engines need to be rebuilt like every other race or something. what is the problem with the current engine. i would like to know before i get into this.


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: DonRacer on July 29, 2008, 10:53:54 AM
" i didn't think sprint engines were all that much money."

 $40-50,000 for a competitive professional engine.

" i am by far not an engine expert however i think the air to fuel ratio of nitro methane is like 1.2 to 1 or something like that. so in a thirty lap feature you will use some crazy amount of fuel."

No one is going to run 85-90% Nitro like the Drag Racers, but x% could work very well with the right engine combination.

" i think that if the rules allow and engine and any fuel you very quickly have a money race on your hands"

As I said above, the reason its so much cheaper to build an unlimited engine is that you are not really building unlimited horsepower, you only have to build about what we currently have.

"what are you going to do with nitrous on a oval track"

It might be called the "Push-To-Pass" button.


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: Robinette on July 31, 2008, 11:57:50 AM
And no engine in the world can run on straight nitro,  evin top fuel and funny cars use only about 90% nitro with of course 10% methenol.  And if i remember right back when they could run nirto in sprints i think they were using around 10 to 15% whitch is a big improvement in power.  So there is where the cost would actually be cut,  rather than have a 410ci engine like in your typical sprint, you could run evin a 350ci engine and still make the same power


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: DonRacer on July 31, 2008, 03:33:49 PM
I like the way you think!!!

The two Victorville "Open Competition" races could have been the perfect "Unlimited Engine Proof of Concept" races, but the promoters
Wimped-Out on the  "Run What You Brung" concept.

First, they did not allow the common sprint car type battle bars, which turned-off quite a few teams

Second, "Nitrous Oxide, or any other similar additive injection, is not allowed" and "Fuel is restricted to straight methanol with a maximum specific gravity of .820 at 60 degrees Fahrenheit. VP-M5 for 0-360ci cast iron block"

The official reason was "concern with the nitro and nitrous is lack of knowledge within the sprint community."

They did allow any size or type automotive engine and any type of aspiration which no one took them up on.

Who Knows? Maybe they will change their minds and open-up for the Fall Race.


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: sprinter25 on August 05, 2008, 01:10:09 PM
With nitro running $1500 to $1800 a 40 gallon barrel(which I saw on an NHRA race on ESPN), I fail to see any real cost savings here. The lower dollar teams may buy it once, but their limited knowledge of its use would likely kill their engines. And where is the cost saving in that....

People race 305's and 360's becasue that's what they can afford.........


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: DonRacer on August 05, 2008, 03:01:08 PM
"With nitro running $1500 to $1800 a 40 gallon barrel(which I saw on an NHRA race on ESPN), I fail to see any real cost savings here.".

Its not $45.00 a gallon its more like $25.00 a gallon, run 10% and its $2.50 a gallon for racing, probably $50-75 for a night of racing.

"The lower dollar teams may buy it once, but their limited knowledge of its use would likely kill their engines."

Sounds like it would be a great opportunity for someone to open a Fuel Management School...

Nitro is not the only way to go with an Unlimited Engine, your forgetting about Big Inches, Head Configurations, Turbos, ETC.


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: sprinter25 on August 05, 2008, 05:25:47 PM
And did you know that, according to Don Schumacher, and the Tom Compton of the NHRA, that almost ALL Nitro comes from China? And if you can buy it for $25.00/gal, you'd better buy all you can and resell it to the NHRA fuel classes.......and it's not 2.50/gallon when diluted with methanol - it's still at least $25.00/gallon. It just adds 2.50 to the cost per gallon of fuel that you run.

And like anything else, there are diminishing returns for anyone using nitro. Tip the can, blow up parts, buy more expensive and better parts, pay motor builder more money. tip the can, blow up some more parts.

It's just opening a Pandora's box...


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: DonRacer on August 05, 2008, 06:16:01 PM
"And like anything else, there are diminishing returns for anyone using nitro. Tip the can, blow up parts, buy more expensive and better parts, pay motor builder more money. tip the can, blow up some more parts."

I'd like to hear a known professional "ENGINE" Builder tell me that.

"It's just opening a Pandora's box..."

No, It's the key to bringing back creativity and ingenuity to the sport.



Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: sprinter25 on August 05, 2008, 07:32:12 PM
Sorry, but I can't see anything creative from the use of an expensive additive...Ingenuity and creativity? I'm all for it. But use of a volatile known compound, even at $25.00/gal, isn't ingenious in my book. It's just a way to get horsepower with known consequences....that's right, known...

They rebuild fuel motors after every run for a reason....and by allowing racers to tip the can, they'll always go over the edge....and where's the cost effectiveness in a broken motor, whether its caused by nitro or something else?

Ingenious? Nitro is hardly that...right now, it's just a quick way to get power without doing any of the really hard development work, IMO.

And you asked for opinions on this topic - it's obvious that we don't agree, so let's just leave it at that...


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: DonRacer on August 06, 2008, 10:39:41 PM
wimp     Audio Help   /wɪmp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wimp] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation Informal.
–noun 1. a weak, ineffectual, timid person. 
—Verb phrase2. wimp out, a. to be or act like a wimp. 
b. to show timidity or cowardice; chicken out. 
 



Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: sprinter25 on August 07, 2008, 07:54:04 PM
Keyboard bully - see DonRacer.....

baiter - see DonRacer

OK, let's try this....

STFU!!!!! >:(


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: race88 on August 15, 2008, 07:57:38 PM
I'm a little dissapointed.You guys had an interesting debate going on ,and you let it degrade to a pissing match.Over the years I've read and respected both of you guy's opinion and each of you have always been respectfull to others.....Don you ask for others thoughts and someone responded ,just didn't agree with you .... now to the subject poised originally,personally I'm not interested in nitro or n.o.x...but the no restriction on aspiration/configeration/displacement is intreging......production v8/v6 al.block,al.head ,twin overhead cam,multi-valve per cylinder engine could [in my opinion] be developed economically to produce the 700-800 h.p. nessisary for the limited tire /resticted weight non winged sprinter we run[till they allow traction control devices-then all bets are off]


Title: Re: Unlimited Engine
Post by: DonRacer on August 19, 2008, 03:15:49 PM
The Limited Engine is the way the World of Outlaws stacked the sprint car racing deck and everyone else followed.

“But, believe it or not in 1980 we had a thousand horsepower from a 560 inch big block”
“The horsepower completely overcame everything we could do but, when the Outlaws came up there the Big Blocks would definitely give them you know what, they couldn’t keep up, that’s why the rule change.” (410 Limit)
-Ron Shaver

"Well, around here it was "run what you brung" and the cheapest horsepower at that time was the big block. They weren't the easiest things in the world to drive, but they put out raw horsepower. A little guy could go down the straightaway with anybody with a big block. They ran them, well, the whole way through that period of time. The small block was still 9 out of 10. I got my first aluminum big block in '78, when we weren't going real good. We got it for $300. It was an old ZL1 all aluminum block. We put sleeves and stuff in it. In '79, we beat the Outlaws with it. Then somewhere they tried... they kept fiddling with the rules. We started "run what you brung" around here under small wings. Of course, the Outlaws came along bitched our wings were too small. Then we went to the big wings, which was probably a mistake. But, for national unity, we did it. Two years later, they said our motors were too big. Now, you couldn't have it both ways. You know what I mean? I told Ted Johnson that, you know... I said, "Look. What's good for you Outlaws isn't what's always best for us. Just remember that."
-Lynn Paxton

"Which brings us to the first year of WOO and Bentley Warren brings his dirt super mod to the WOO race at Syracuse NY, and whoops the WOO boys.
Poof---the "outlaws" ban their first vehicle, no more super mods allowed to compete in WOO races. Pretty soon the "outlaws" were just another rule infused sanction."
-Bob Riebe

"It seems that racing always ends up with one dominate engine. I've always been a competitor, like to see different brands and different types of engines out there. My son was an apprentice and his project to be a Class A pattern maker was to make a six cylinder block out of my eight cylinder block. To make a long story short, we built a V-6, 429 inch Hemi and put it in a sprint car. The second night out at Ascot, we were the number one qualifier and the thing was very competitive. It ran good and sounded good, because it was different."
-Nick Arias Jr.

"If your gonna play with rattlesnakes, you better know what rattlesnakes do."
-Smokey Yunick