USAC Racing Forum

General Chat => Point .25 => Topic started by: ssssmoke on August 16, 2009, 02:14:46 PM



Title: usac
Post by: ssssmoke on August 16, 2009, 02:14:46 PM
one thing i want to say is everyone calls and complains when they get a bad pizza but most dont call and say you sent me out one damn good pizza and thank you. lol. that being said i was one of the first ones to complain when i thought things were not right, so now i will be the one to say the pizza has been pretty good the last couple times. its good to know usac listened to the racers and said if we have a problem lets make changes and see if we can make things better. thats something we did not have in our previous years in qm racing. thanks to usac for wanting to keep our sport improving every day.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: goffin20 on August 16, 2009, 03:07:07 PM
I agree, things seem to improve with each race.

The one thing that still needs attention that HAS NOT made much headway is the safety issue with LEANING!  Very disturbing having the shoulders, head and neck hanging over the nerf bars and even more disturbing to see how loose those belts are to lean that far out.

Other than that I have been pretty impressed this year.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: grandma13 on August 16, 2009, 07:21:13 PM
Having checked belts at some of the races I can tell it is not that they are loose unless loosened after they leave onto the track but rather many are set up so both shoulder belts are hooked on the left side.  Some so severe that the driver can do nothing but lean to the left.

Am I concerned - absolutely; set up like that if the driver needed to react to sit upright they cannot.  I have to assume the handler knows the danger.  I have visions of what could happen so far we have been lucky; however, I sure do not want to see that luck pushed.

Yes smoke, I agree that it is great to see an organization listen to the racing community.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: goffin20 on August 16, 2009, 07:30:28 PM
I know of a select few that cut their eyes after they are snugged down only to loosen them after they are checked.

Your doing your job, it will be the handlers fault when something happens.

I just hope the issue is addressed before something does happen.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: grandma13 on August 16, 2009, 10:36:33 PM
Yes, It is the handlers fault.  Yet tell me how you are ever going to explain to a child who accidently hits a driver hanging out and result is severe injury that it is not their fault?  I cannot imagine the emotional turmoil that child would go through. 

Now I do not in any way profess to have even a little knowledge of racing, I do though have a lot of knowledge of trauma having been on a trauma team at a large hospital for 12 years until I could not take any more.  And my children never understood why  no motorcycles were ever allowed.  If one of these leaners gets hit just right we are talking major injury.



Title: Re: usac
Post by: sfreitas20 on August 16, 2009, 11:46:14 PM
I think USAC is doing some great things for the sport, but there are also some areas that need improving too.  Hopefully the improvement keep showing up and we keep moving forward.

On the leaning thing, I really do believe USAC will take that out of our sport once they get enough of the market share for Quarter Midget racing.  I just hope no kid gets seriously injured before then.  One easy way to create a quick fix would be to just start measuring for the 1" space between the top of a kids helmet and the bottom of the top frame rails.  Many leaners I have seen wouldn't fit in the car if they sit upright.  The rulebook is pretty clear that this measurement is taken with the driver sitting upright.

Rulebook: The roll cage should extend one inch above the driver’s helmet when sitting upright in cockpit, measured from the bottom portion of the tubing.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: RBurns17 on August 17, 2009, 07:24:38 AM
Yes, It is the handlers fault.  Yet tell me how you are ever going to explain to a child who accidently hits a driver hanging out and result is severe injury that it is not their fault?  I cannot imagine the emotional turmoil that child would go through. 

Now I do not in any way profess to have even a little knowledge of racing, I do though have a lot of knowledge of trauma having been on a trauma team at a large hospital for 12 years until I could not take any more.  And my children never understood why  no motorcycles were ever allowed.  If one of these leaners gets hit just right we are talking major injury.



I've been around racing my entire life and have seen the things that can happen when all possible precautions are taken. I don't even want to imagine what the result is going to be of these handlers blatantly ignoring not even a precaution, but common sense.

I'm not going to let my driver lean out of the car because that would be like letting them hold their arm out of the window of a car going down a country road. I think the sport is fortunate that tragedies haven't occurred more often. It only takes one time.

Although at the Kokomo show I did see the tech guy addressing some of the more serious leaners after their practice session. But there's still not consistency with it.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: BQwkR on August 17, 2009, 09:17:44 AM
I have noted that the kids that are leaning just don't realize that they are putting themselves in danger because they have "burned in" the habit that their parents or track officials let them get away with. Most times the leaners are the sons and daughters ( the ones who seem to win every Saturday)of the track officials who are supposed to be policing these violations. Rarely do you see one of the novices or juniors lean out of the car. I credit this to the mom's and dad's who are initially skeptical of .25 racing and take measures to make sure their little J.J. is safe. USAC needs to make random unannounced visits to eliminate problem.

Okay.....let's hear the experts advice and criticisms of my point of view.... 


Title: Re: usac
Post by: goffin20 on August 17, 2009, 11:17:01 AM
Video & Pictures are worth a thousand words and don't lie.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: CrazyKid on August 17, 2009, 11:35:38 AM
Not sure this is the place to address this since it started off as praising USAC. I will never let my kids lean out of their car for 2 major reason. 1) Its far to dangerous of a sport to overlook one simple thing and add another danger. Yes its safer then most kids sports, but it is still true blue racing machines and that makes danger. 2) Of all the race cars I have driven, and none were a midget or sprint, I always sat in the middle on the car. I tell my kids "look if you want to be a professional driver when you grow up your going to have to sit right.
With that said I brought it up to another family that thought I was nuts but have a look at your club and see how many cars lose right fronts due to damage. Now look how many of them were hanging out. I believe if you sit your child up, preferably in a nice tight racing seat, and allow them to see the right front tire, there will be way better racing, less crashes, and less charging into the corner..


Title: Re: usac
Post by: ssssmoke on August 17, 2009, 11:36:30 AM
i forgot to thank, and let everyone who wasnt at whiteland, what a good job the club did to move the mwt race along smoothly. alot of the guys worked the whole time between the races they ran.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: BQwkR on August 18, 2009, 08:33:15 AM
yes, a picture is worth a thousand words.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: racemom2000 on August 18, 2009, 12:49:24 PM
Wow, right on the documentary poster too. Hmmmm.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: racn4fun on August 20, 2009, 08:36:57 AM
I just wanna add a few things.  We just bought our 5yr old daughter a QM, and that was one of the first things I addressed with my husband.  I told him I DID NOT want her head leaning outside the car at all.  Its just too scary.  The car we bought came with the straight seat, so hopefully we wont have to deal with the leaning.  And like CRAZYKID posted, my husband has ran race cars since he was 15 yr old.  Hes been in stock cars and mods, and he has never had to "lean".
So that will be the theory we use.  My kids safety is my biggest concern, and head trauma isnt something I wanna deal with.  8)


Title: Re: usac
Post by: BQwkR on August 20, 2009, 09:05:58 AM
Right on. All little league sports that I have been associated stress safety. Officials will stop a Pop Warner football game if they see a violation, take the kid out of the game, and give the coaches a warning and a 15 yarder.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: RBurns17 on August 20, 2009, 03:48:30 PM
Go to the movie's promo site and watch the trailer. There's a good shot of a kid flipping while hanging half out of the car due to leaning. It's somewhere around the clip of the dad telling his kid to wreck another one. Nice representation of the kind of stuff QMA turns a blind eye to.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: sfreitas20 on August 20, 2009, 05:05:07 PM
Yeah, that is a helmet hard to pavement on that one.

Regarding the dad telling the kid to wreck another kid (especially a kid as small as that)...what an a$$hole!  I hope and pray I never hear a handler telling their kid to do that to my kid.  I would be banned from that track after that day.  These are kids driving racecars and they wreck enough because they are pushing the envelope of the ability (especially the little ones) as it is.  They don't need to hear their dads giving them the ok to wreck another kid.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: BuckeyeQMDad on August 21, 2009, 01:46:50 PM
Amen brother!


Title: Re: usac
Post by: TysonThompson on August 21, 2009, 03:51:49 PM
I agree with all of these post.  If USAC wants to be the top santioning body for QM's driver positioning must be addressed.  It is the "big" thing that will set USAC apart.  I have gotten off my soapbox about this topic. My kid sits upright, in a seat and can run with anyone in the country.  The raceceiver however is a great tool and if QMA had mandated it, Ashton would not have had her foot broken by a driver that was not paying attention.  USAC needs to show that they are proactive and the most "professional" sanctioning body for QM's.  Make the no leaning rule!!


Title: Re: usac
Post by: RBurns17 on August 21, 2009, 08:54:42 PM
I'm not understanding why it's taking so long to do so. I've heard they're looking at mandating seats, which I don't think is the right course of action. We have one driver who has a seat and one who doesn't. They both sit upright in the car. There are plenty of points to mandate a threshold plane on where is in and where is out. No seat about it. Just a simple, you're in the car or you're out of it.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 21, 2009, 10:08:25 PM
This has been one of my biggest pet peeves with quarter midgets and QMA in particular. They mandate the seat belt replacement citing SFI spec. that calls for replacement, $elling ton$ of $eatbelt$, while tottaly ignoring the second half of the spec that says they have to be mounted per manufacturers instructions otherwise they offer NONE of the safety advantages they are there for in the first place. In a day and age where doing double back flips off of a 30' ramp on a BMX bike is a sport selling safety is hard enough without the sanctioning body cashing in an selling out. Everyone have their "shattered shield"?


Title: Re: usac
Post by: BQwkR on August 24, 2009, 09:34:05 AM
Well it seems we are all in agreement. I hope the USAC moderator will read everyones comments and reply to how USAC is addressing this problem. I put my grandson in a padded steel name brand  seat. I played heck trying to mount it correct so that wouldn't become an ejection seat. I bolted this thing just to about anywhere I could on the frame and the belly pan. It was a solid mount whenI got done; my grandson ran very well and out performed all the other cars in his rookie/novice class. The problem is, no one inspected my work. God bless this guy for volunteering his time as a safety officer on Saturdays and Sundays but sometime I feel that he relies the owners of the car to police his or her own safety equipment. But isn't the club's saftey director mandated by the rules to inspect the equipment and use the USAC rule book to enforce them. I'm an electrical engineer not a bonified seat installer. I checked those nuts and bolts recently, they all became very loose to my surprise. I should have welded the seat to the frame but I also do not know how to Tigg weld. Alright, I shut up. 


Title: Re: usac
Post by: odogracing on August 24, 2009, 11:19:59 AM
I have brought this issue up several times before.  I was told once the car passes intial safety it is then the handlers job to ensure the kart remains safe.  This is something QMA has pushed down.  I feel there should be safety tech each week.  So, as it stands right now my son's safety is in the hands of some other handler assuming their gonna make sure their quarter midget is safe?   Nice.. huh?


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 24, 2009, 11:46:03 AM
If you want to do safety eac week, then do it. Bring it up at a club meeting and vote on it. If you see something wrong with another car point it out to the handler. Help each other.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: rookiecheif06 on August 24, 2009, 12:17:49 PM
USAC should make .25 ruling : NO HEAD OR SHOULDER LEANING outside of car. Penalty: DQ. Safety is priority one. Eliminate the danger to the driver. My son Joey will start racing in 18 mos. and his upper body will not be leaning out. USAC just implement the rule, make the sport more safe. What good is a safer barrier(sic) if the kid nails it with his leaning head and shoulder at fast speed?


Title: Re: usac
Post by: ssssmoke on August 24, 2009, 12:31:10 PM
thats good if all tracks do it. but if one track makes the no leaning rule then chances are they are the black sheep and car counts go way down. i think its up to usac.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 24, 2009, 12:34:01 PM
The issue is really more complicated than that. The handlers have never refused a change in tires that gets more speed. The dimensions and construction of these cars is based on decades old tech. when the tires were hockey pucks. If you set the kids much bigger than Jr. Rookie straight up, on asphault, they get up on two wheels in a heartbeat and clear the fence on a regular bassis. Since no one seems to be in favor of slowing the cars down with a harder compound tire, other changes would have to be made. Allowing a wider track width and eliminating the left side tire inset rule would do it.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: sfreitas20 on August 24, 2009, 12:53:52 PM
ssssmoke hit on a point...if USAC implemented it now then they would lose too many cars to QMA because they have shown they are ok with pretending it isn't a concern.  It is a bad business decision to make right now while they are trying to break into the market in a big way.  To the Ohio/Indy crowd it might seem like they have already broke in, but in other markets we are dying for USAC to take on more tracks.  Once they have secured their future with enough tracks, they will implement the rule.  Let's just hope no kids gets severly hurt before then because of the business aspect of it.

I am really shocked this thread has been out here as long as it has without the hardcore supporters of leaning chiming in and telling us to just let them risk thier kids health if they want because it is their kid and thier choice, like they did on every other thread with this topic in it.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: BQwkR on August 24, 2009, 01:46:07 PM
Swartz. This is just a question and not a comment, couldn't you just put more camber on the two front tires? I believe you can set it to more than 5 degrees. We have a fairly sloped track at Orange Show so I don't if it's an issue here. These kids are driving hard and really fast but I don't see to many of them bicycle at 5 degrees. I hope this wasn't a stupid question.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 24, 2009, 01:53:06 PM
Not stupid at all. Camber and scrub radius have a big effect on weight transfer. Those are the tools you have to adjust a kart. A track like Orange Show, with it's high banks, is an entirely different story than a track like Mac-O-Chee where you can lay a marble on the track and it won't roll and corners so tight they squeak.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: sfreitas20 on August 24, 2009, 03:01:43 PM
I agree a wider track width is probably worth considering for the heavier classes.  However USAC has other rules in place that could be used to help stop the practice too.  Sit the kids up straight, then enforce Section 5, Item E of the USAC Race Procedures.  After a few DQs due to the car bicycling, a handler will either figure out how to make it work or slow it down.  Afterall, you can't win when you are at your trailer with a DQ.

Section 5 under the "Duties of a Chief Steward"
5. The Chief Steward will have authority to immediately disqualify a driver/car for
the following:
Item E under section 5:
E. Car being operated in an unsafe manner. (Excessive bicycling 3
consecutive corners, Stuck throttle, No brakes, etc)


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 24, 2009, 03:23:15 PM
So your saying put the kids in a situation where they can't avoid biking and then DQ them for it? You have to consider to that the first time a car bikes may be the only time and it could clear the fence doing it. Seen it happen.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: sfreitas20 on August 24, 2009, 03:47:24 PM
I am not for putting the kids in that situation at all.  However, if at the next race USAC informed the teams that the following race they had to be sitting upright in the car and if they bike it really bad they are getting DQ'd as per that rule, the handlers will solve the problem, even if that means slowing the car down.  The ones that don't would get DQ'd and after a couple of them, they will find a way.  In the end the sport would be far safer than it is right now with the head and shoulders outside the main frame rail.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 24, 2009, 03:50:07 PM
Okeydoky, what adjustment would you make?


Title: Re: usac
Post by: ssssmoke on August 24, 2009, 03:59:48 PM
a 600 is the only thing i can think of. or maybe coilovers using springs off of a 79 bronco. just a couple of thoughts.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: sfreitas20 on August 24, 2009, 04:05:48 PM
How about this crazy idea...your driver rolls out of the throttle earlier? ;)


Title: Re: usac
Post by: ssssmoke on August 24, 2009, 04:11:23 PM
boring!!! this is racing. lol


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 24, 2009, 04:12:40 PM
I don't know what kind of racing you are used to but that is not an option. The objective is to get maximum performance while allowing the driver to maintain controll. Besides, biking has nothing to do with throttle controll. Its all about overturning momentum. Lifting into the corner may mask it, and make sure your kid never get a trophy, but the first time it gets knocked sideways on the straight, hooks and rolls, what have you accomplished. So, what adjustment would you make?


Title: Re: usac
Post by: sfreitas20 on August 24, 2009, 04:21:14 PM
As long as all the cars are close to equal, the racing stays the same or even gets better because those slow pokes at the back of the pack get to catch up. :)

If we have reached the safe limits of speed with the current car/track designs then we a few options:

1. We can slow the cars down.
2. We can redesign the cars.
3. We can redesign the track.
4. We can move our kids completely outside the frame rails and have them sit on a pad on the left side nerf bar then only steer with their right hand because it is all that will reach the steering wheel. ;)


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 24, 2009, 04:31:24 PM
That's what I though. You don't know.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: BQwkR on August 24, 2009, 04:43:07 PM
What does roll out of the throttle mean? We don't teach that. Does that mean slow down on the curves? Heck, isn't that where races are really won?


Title: Re: usac
Post by: sfreitas20 on August 24, 2009, 04:50:15 PM
"Its all about overturning momentum." - No offense man, but increased speed equals increased momentum.  Slow the cars down and you decrease momentum.  Not my opinion, scientific and mathematical fact.

"The objective is to get maximum performance while allowing the driver to maintain control." - Correct, a car biking on two wheels isn't maintaining control.

Lucky for me at Junior Honda speeds and on banked tracks I haven't had to adjust for this issue, but right now with how AJ's car is sitting in my garage if I had to, I would:

Move the 30lbs of lead (I love having a skinny driver) under his seat as far left as possible.  Maybe even make the lower left side body panels out of a heavier metal to get the weight as far left as possible.  One other option along this line is much thicker tubing for the left side nerf bar to increase the weight that is furthest to the left, but that is a very small gain in weight, but again still an option.

I would move the RR out the rest of the way, because we are 1/2" under the max width.

I would increase the RR tire pressure because we are in the 8 - 10 range right now.

If I really wanted to get creative too, I could move my lefts sides in another 1/2 - 3/4", but it would be a lot of work.  If I needed to do it though, I would.

One thing I won't consider is wrapping the left side nerf bars with padding so AJ can rest his head on them. ;)


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 24, 2009, 04:55:06 PM
Those are all intresting ideas when you have a 40 lbs driver but totaly useless when you have a 155 lbs one. Overturning momentum has not so much to do with speed as it does with the relationship between the center of gravity and the roll center. You can get a Jr. Rookie car to bike if you try.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: sfreitas20 on August 24, 2009, 05:03:54 PM
Like I said I haven't had to deal with it at Jr Honda speeds with a 45 pound driver on banked tracks.  That I am thankful for.

However if this sport can't safely have heavy classes race these cars at these speeds without them biking while keeping the driver safely contained inside the car, then something else will have to be considered at some point.  I am sure over the years some very intelligent people have tried to make a heavy car handle without biking.  If you get to the point there is nothing left to adjust or throw at it and the car still bikes, then the other three options I mentioned are about all you are left with.  Trust me, at some point this won't be an option.  When there is some ridiculous insurance claim related to this (if you haven't noticed our society as a whole is insanely sue happy), the insurance companies will make the sanctioning body make changes.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: ssssmoke on August 24, 2009, 09:51:52 PM
i got it. a horse carousel (pronounced care-o-sell). put it in the infield attach a rope around the top of the race car. sit the driver strait up no biking!!!! damn, we will have to start single file and no passing. 


Title: Re: usac
Post by: slowpoke on August 25, 2009, 11:11:48 PM
You would think that by now some of the silver crown and sprint car drivers would be hanging out of their cars also since it makes you so much faster, to heck with adjusting things JUST HANG OUT!


Title: Re: usac
Post by: BQwkR on August 26, 2009, 08:52:54 AM
You're right Mr. Poke. This was an interesting thread. I don't think those who are not concerned about kids "leaning" are any less caring than those of us who think it's a issue of safety. I'm kind of an old guy. I played high school and college football in the 50's when you did'nt need a cage on your helmut. I never got as much as a nose bleed for 7 years and I played every game. My last year of college football they made everyone except the backfield wear one of those damned things. Wouldn't you know, I blew out my knee. Is there a lesson to be learned?


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 26, 2009, 09:16:28 AM
You would think that by now some of the silver crown and sprint car drivers would be hanging out of their cars also since it makes you so much faster, to heck with adjusting things JUST HANG OUT!
QMs are one of the very few motorsports where the driver can be 50% or more of the combined weight of the vehicle/driver. The problem I have with "leaning" is the driver being held stationary from the waist down. Just beggin' for a spine injury. You want to see some serious "leaning" watch some motorcross and Karts.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: dmmc on August 26, 2009, 09:21:35 AM
-Had out the calculator... a 180 lb silver crown driver is about 1/7 or less of the combined wt. A 95 lb lt 160 driver is 1/3 of the combined wt......


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 26, 2009, 09:53:19 AM
We run Hvy. WF 340 lbs and Hvy. AA 325 lbs. My driver, 155lbs. Last time I weighed him. Might have had a sandwich or two since then


Title: Re: usac
Post by: d4hall on August 26, 2009, 12:00:12 PM
Would you like the extreme.

Driver: 6'0", 260 lbs w/heavy suit on, 15yrs old

Combined car and Driver: 425 lbs

Driver is over 60% of the weight

Driving an NC Extreme 02  82"x37" set at "Half" length and width

Seated (Lying) in custom "Bead" seat with slight lean. Belts tight. Outside of helmet at shoulder bar. With the rap-around effect of the bead seat he can't lean farther than positioned.

We tried many things to keep the car from biking.
         Switching from Vegas to Hooisers. (BIG help)
         Laying him down with custom seat.
         Softening the springs. (ie:115# RR)

He can race an almost 20 HP Animal with out biking. It would not have been possible if he had to be in an upright rigid seat. Is he safe? You might ask. I think so, or he wouldn't be racing. Even with a total 22 flips as he enters his 10th year of racing, the worst injuries have been bruises.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: Swartz on August 26, 2009, 12:05:59 PM
Dale,
Are you running the allowed 36" track width?


Title: Re: usac
Post by: d4hall on August 26, 2009, 12:08:24 PM
Not usually. It gets a little loose if I go all the way out there.


Title: Re: usac
Post by: slowpoke on September 01, 2009, 12:21:11 AM
I personally do not have a problem with someone not using a seat (we use one because we want to). What I do have a problem with is these kids who are hanging outside of the nerf bars, everyone I know who comes and watches these races for the first time just can not believe that these kids parents let them stick their heads out in harms way.I have seen two kids this year receive tire marks on the left side of their helmets and their dads let them continue to do it. I could not imagine how I would feel if I let my kid get hurt this way ,especially when it is so easy to prevent.Come On USAC , you need to address this issue now.