USAC Racing Forum

First I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to visit us over the week. It was a busy week for everyone at the event. We decided to post the pictures online for purchase.

So if you did not have a chance to purchase them at the track they are available here.

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/store.aspx?p=53284 (http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/store.aspx?p=53284)

Thank you,
Kris Walker &
Joe Chopski

All you parents who strap your kids heads out of the cars for the sake of speed should take a look at the frame by frame of  my kid hitting the barrier in the heavy honda b main. Now just imagine the same wreck with loose shoulder straps and my kids helmet hanging out of the car. I do not know how you guys sleep at night. USAC Step up and stop the leaning!!

All of us parents are all very concerned about our children. I don't think you should make a statement like this against the parents that choose to have their kids leaning out of the car. You like a seat that is fine, others perfer to have the driver leaning which is perfectly fine. I have seen more drivers complain of being hurt or actually get hurt that are sitting in a seat and not leaning out of the car.Lets make a deal and you run your car the way you think it should be and the others will run their car the way they perfer to run it. Stop trying to make more Rules when we can't even obey all of the rules that are in effect now.

The MotionX people have been doing a great job and I don't think this thread is the best place to discuss this, but.... Our kid does not "lean" any farther than the jersey bar. He refuses to, which is good, because I don't want him to. In Toledo his Hvy. WF flipped and because he is pretty much as wide as the car he got a seperated shoulder on impact. Had he been leaning out 350 lbs. would have landed squarely on his head and shoulder. Could have been really bad. As it was he only had to have his arm in a sling for a week and didn't miss any baseball. Last year I saw 3 kids knocked unconcious on contact. All hanging out from the shoulders up. I know of at least one case of severe whiplash this year. Could be a lot more. No one reports this stuff. It took about a dozen broken ankles to get the heel stop on board. If a QM win is worth risking serious harm to your kid, by all means, let them hang out. How much damage can a bumper do to a helmet after all.....

I'm sorry, but any crash that hurt a kid in a seat would have hurt the kid even more if he were leaning. A rule against leaning is something that USAC is going to have to put a lot of thought into because telling people not to lean is easy, but the boundaries and guidelines are going to have to be well thought out. I'd rather wait a little longer for it than to see something rushed out that doesn't work. The logistics of how some are going to accomplish that is a whole different story. I'm totally against leaning and when our driver is so big that he needs to lean to fit in the car, it's time to move up. Performance wise, there isn't a need to lean. Anyone who says otherwise needs to go buy a Steve Smith book on quarter midgets because optimum performance can be achieved without your child's armpit resting on the jersey bar.

Uhh.... that would be wrong. What "leaning" acomplishes is to move more weight down and to the left. That lets you move the lower center of gravity more closely to a lower rotational center giving the car less overturning momentum and greater side bite. Leaning will always be a performance advantage and dangerous.

"Leaning will always be a performance advantage and dangerous."

WRONG!  It may be easier for you to set your car up by having your kid lean, but you can do it without it.  In every class that kids lean way out of the car, there are kids that win regularly that do not lean so drastically.  If you can sleep easy at night knowing you put your kid in a more dangerous situation to make it easier on you setup wise, so be it. 

For those of us concerned for other kids safety, USAC will address this issue in the future.  I would bet any amount of money on it.  Right now they need to focus on growing their track and member counts first.  Doing it right now would cost them too many teams at a crucial point in their development.  Once they have a strong hold on the market for .25 Midget racing, you will see a rule change to eliminate the leaning.

This isn't just a seat or no seat thing either.  Look at the pictures from Junior Honda C Main.  There is a kid with his Randy LaJoie seat mounted in such a way the head restraint is way outside of the shoulder bar.  Hopefully the rollover that put his head on the pavement will convince his handler to move that seat over.

Your opinion on leaning does not change physics. A lower center of gravity more closely coupled with the roll center will always be faster. In case you have the wrong idea I am against leaning also.

It is fact that a lower center of gravity will create lower roll center.  However it is also fact that with enough time spent on setup a Quarter Midget can be made to be just as fast without having a driver lean outside the shoulder bar.  This fact is proven weekly at many tracks.

On top of the safety issue, anyone with their kid leaning outside the car is teaching them bad habits that will not translate to any other form of racing after Quarter Midgets.  Unless maybe I have always run to get a hot dog while guys were sitting on their nerf bars in Sprint car races or when Tony Stewart hangs out the window during the Daytona 500. ;)

True, but there's some things we can do with our driver close to upright that didn't produce results with him leaned. Also, I don't know how true this is because we don't run one, but we have a member that swears the inboard LF eliminates the need to lean absurdly far.

I also agree with SFreitas. We're planning on moving up as a lot of people are and teaching a driver to drive from the side of the car doesn't help his transition to moving up.

Moving the left front shock, as well as the left rear, translates to more of the static weight being positioned left of the roll center buy moving the axles to the right. The only hang up is that stupid nerf bar tire inset rule. The roll center on a panhard bar car is always at the center of the panhard bar.
Valentino Rossi?

I am not sure why you guys are so big on this subject. You put your child in as much danger driving down the road in car. There are many diffrent chassis to choose from and no one trys to get any chassis bared from QM racing, so why try to get the driving style choose of a driver and handler bared from QM racing? Concentrate on your own equipment and leave everyone else alone about theirs it is our choose on how we want to set up our equipment.

Last year all non down tube chassis or non molly tube chassis were barred from competition so, yes, some cars have been banned. My kids don't lean out the window in the car either but the dog does. Set up your stuff any way you want but don't expect sympathy if something bad happens.

"The only hang up is that stupid nerf bar tire inset rule." - Nothing a Saw's All and a welder won't fix.  We made a new nerf bar for one of the Tampa kids in about an hour or so just a couple days before we all left for Indy.

"so why try to get the driving style choose of a driver and handler bared from QM racing?" - Because it isn't safe!  You know what I find funny...I have only seen a few fires, but we make our kids wear firesuits and gloves.  I have seen dozens of roll overs, but we still let our kids lean out of the car.  Why don't we let them race in shorts and t-shirts?

Yeah, but it still has to be 4 in. out and the tire can't be inside it.
Just in case someone thinks bad things never happen:

http://www.bigwestracing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19177

I am glad you guys are on this topic again.  I think we should change the name of this thread though.  There is alot of good "healthy"discussion here.  As you all know I am in support of "upright" seating.  The main concern of mine is my daughter hitting one of these "leaners" and causing serious injury.  Nobody should have to live with the guilt of killing or paralyzing someone, especially an 8 year old.  For those of you that cannot drive a QM without hanging over the nerf, please MOVE ON to a different form of racing.
I will always have my kid in a seat, straight up, with head supports on both sides and wearing a HANS.  There still is a chance of getting injured. But, I have done everything possible to prevent injury.  AND we still run in the FRONT.

I would never be in favor of mandating seats and if a Hans is necessary the speed is too great but if you feel better using it, more power to you. Back in the day when all this started the cut off age was 12. How it got expanded to 16 I don't know but if someone does, please tell. The main problem is the void in motorsports for 12 to 14 year olds. We find ourselves having to make a 3 hour drive to run 600 sidewinders, something I didn't want to do, or spend a truckload of money to run legends or Kenyon cars in order to move on to something else.

No reference to a 4" requirement in the Nerf Bar sections of the USAC or QMA rulebook that I have seen.  Just have to extend to at least the mid point of the tire and not be outside of the tire.  Even if there was a 4" rule, I haven't seen anyone running wheels less than 4" wide, so it shouldn't be an issue.

Swartz, thanks for posting that link.  Our first car was a 400 series Fiser that didn't have the third bar on the nerf, so the first thing we did was add one.  We noticed that a right front tire could still have penetrated the drivers compartment above the newly added bar, so we made up another bar that clamped onto the frame across the drivers compartment to reduce that risk as well.  My number one concern right now is that AJ might lay his car on the side and another car could hit him and their bumper can penetrate the the top of the car and make contact with his head.  My big concern with clamping a bar across the top is that it limits his ability to make a quick exit in the event of a fire.  I guess it is one of those risks I just have to accept when I strap AJ in his car.

Any comments on head supports or nets that keep the kids head leaned outward?  Never seemed like a smart move to me if a bumper ever came into the cockpit and the head support or net prevented the head from moving, could be fatal.

They shouldnt be legal.

One thing would make all this moot. Another bar on the jersey bar. Can't lean past it. Cars can't get through it. Cost about $10. But, I would also change the track width rule that has not kept up with tires since the old blue streaks they used to soak in gas to get grip and allow 36".

I agree with Swartz, we should have never raised the age to 16.  There are alot of 16 year olds running full size sprinters.  I also agree with the void in motorsports.  Usac can help with this, and hopefully they will come up with something.  And another thing the HALF class should be eliminated.  There is never any cars and the kids are to big for them anyhow.

It's here:

D. Shoulder bar must be securely fastened to left nerf bar and rear roll cage upright
using a grade 5 bolt or better. Shoulder bar can be attached by welding, mounted
with split clamps or nerf style spuds.
Shoulder bar must be securely fastened at nerf end between the leftmost point of
the nerf bar and a point four inches inboard of that. At the Cage the shoulder bar
must be at least as high as the top of tail cone

I agree, a 36" width would help alot.

That doesn't say the nerf has to be 4 inches, just that the shoulder bar must be less than 4 inches from the outside edge of the nerf

Nope. I've seen cars tossed on this one. The nerf bar must connect to the outermost part of the left side nerf and be at least four inches from the main down tube of the cage at the top connecting point.  If USAC chooses to apply the rule differently it would be nice to know. I've also seen cars tossed because the left rear tire was inside the PADDING on the Jersey bar.

Yes, dont forget the padding, seen that one myself...

I don't think the half class should be eliminate. Just improved. Bigger car, larger tracks. An intermediate class to the 600s and midgets. A lot of the kids that are older are still in QMs because they have younger siblings racing and the families can't split their time.

Sorry guys, but that doesn't say the nerf bars have to be 4" from the main frame tubes.  That is talking about where the shoulder bar mounts to the nerf bar.  If anyone had a car tossed because nerfs were closer than 4" to the main frame tubes, they should question it because it just isn't in the rulebook.

As Goffin's question:
From the USAC rulebook: No restraining device may be used to keep the drivers head or body outside of the roll cage.
From the QMA rulebook: No restraining device of any kind is to be used to keep the driver’s head or body outside the roll cage, with the exception of attaching both shoulder straps to the left upright bar of the cage.

Even though it is in the rulebook, I have seen several cars with nets that force a drivers head to the left, outside the main frame tubing.  Even if you have both shoulder straps on the left upright, your kid shouldn't be able to lean outside of the shoulder bar if they belts are correctly tightened.

I see what you are saying now. No, no rule on the nerfs but the shoulder bar must be 4" at the top. I guess you could angle it in at the bottom if the nerf is narrower than that but the wheel offset would still be measured at the widest point that would be the 4".

Scott, you got that pit dug yet? There is a cow across the road looking at me funny.

I saw that as well.  They need to enforce it because I have seen a few that their helmets are outside of the frame rail due to head rests or nets forcing them out.  Very dangerous IMO.

My son head leans a little when driving,and I believe he is just safe as his competitors!! Although his whole body doesn't stick out either.   We have a new joie seat that we are installing in the next couple of weeks. The seat is the way to go in my opinion.  My hope is to get my son sitting straight up if possible. The reason for it is, he will need to get used this when racing different types of cars....

Larry...B is safe in his car.  If his car rolled (and some day it probably will) his head wouldn't hit the ground with the way he is seated in the car.  When you are mounting the Joie of Seating seat you will notice the left side head restraint is angled to allow for the kids to look to the left and see outside the car, but it still protects their head and should be mounted to keep their head inside the shoulder bar.  If you mount it like the one in Junior Honda C Main with the whole head restraint outside the shoulder bar, you and I will have some problems at the track. ;)

Because it's a safety issue. Yes, this is racing and there is always a risk, but the goal is to minimize the risk as much as possible. If no one can lean, then no one has the advantage. So say your kid goes flipping while leaning out of the car. That stops him from smacking his head or whole left side against the pavement?

I'm sure we can all agree that we don't let our kids hang out of the windows of our car while driving, so no, I don't think we put them in just as much danger while driving.

(http://kriswalker.com/pic/contact.jpg)
Only the left side is pass the main frame and does not extend pass the shoulder bar.
My son was the Jr Honda C main car that flipped. Now the way we have his seat mounted allows him to see out the side of the car yet with the upper halo of the LaJoie seat kept his head and neck safer than it would have been if he did not have a seat at all. With that being said we are looking at the location of the shoulder bar and the angle from the top of the frame to the nerf bar. There is room for improvement. Even though his head sits a small amount outside the main frame he is still protected by the left side of the head support system as well as the shoulder bar.

I feel if he were not is a seat he would have seen the inside of Methodist Hospital. This is because of seat and the proper mounting of seat belts.

Is racing dangerous? Yes
Do we need to take proper safety measures to make sure nothing tragic happens if the technology is available? Yes

The real question should be what is safer about a kid leaning with their head out not just beyond the frame but the shoulder bar as well?

"I feel if he were not is a seat he would have seen the inside of Methodist Hospital." - I agree with you 100% on this.

"Do we need to take proper safety measures to make sure nothing tragic happens if the technology is available? Yes" - I agree 100% on this one too.  I have said it before on these forums, we all assume some risks every time we strap our kids into their cars.  If the worst case scenario ever happened to any of us, would we want to second guess ourselves over a few hundred dollar piece of safety equipment.  I know I wouldn't.

Kris...it appears based on the emails I got that I may have offended your family, so let me say here again what I said in the emails.  I am sorry if I did offend them because that wasn't my intention at all.  I do think your son is safer than many of the drivers out there because of the seat you choose to strap him in, but I also think there is room for improvement with how that seat is mounted.  I am glad to hear  you are looking at the shoulder bar and considering some tweaks.  The picture you posted shows the car pretty much resting on the head restraint of the seat instead of resting on the shoulder bar.  As I also said in those emails, I don't believe any part of the seat should contact the ground unless there is severe damage to the rest of the car causing bars that would normally contact the ground to not be there.

If you read the 1998 QMA National Meeting minutes you will see that there was concern rasied about the ever increasing speed in QMs and the fear of the danger of running 7 or 8 second laps. I don't know about anyone else but we regularly turn laps of 5.5 to 6.2. Slow the cars down? Hell no! We'll just make a couple of thousand dollars worth of "safety" eqipment manditory. Should make it easier for my Jr. Jeff Gordon to win pricing a lot of the competition out of the sport. This is mostly sarcasm. Except for that parts that aren't

Having the shoulder bar come straight out from the top of the frame and then down will buy you a little more room up top.

But we're not talking about thousands of dollars worth of safety equipment. We're talking about not letting any part of the body be outside the vertical plane of the jersey bar.

Loved the photos from Motion X, thanks Kris & Joe (Excellent work)! :)

Thank you very much Racemom2000! Joe and I love being a part of it all.

We offered a template which had several color choices to match the car. Online it only shows as a yellow one. Don't worry we can change the template color after your order to match the car. For some reason it did not give that option for the online orders.

Not to mention that it also looks highly uncomfortable... Wouldn't it be uncomfortable to lean way out over that nerf bar?

What you accomplished by adding this bar was brilliant & I highly recommend any concerned parent do something similar. Scott, you might want to post a picture so everyone can see what you did. If you have time, I'd definitely pay you to do the same on Noah's. I'd do it myself, but you know I'm still figuring out the tire scraper & heat gun - LOL!

I didn't see hardly anyone using them at Nationals, but how do you all feel about those v-shaped nets by G-Force? Can you put them on the left side? Or just right side? If they can go on the left, couldn't they prevent another car from hitting my boy in the side during impact?

These pictures aren't the greatest, but you can see what we changed on the car:

Before: http://www.freitasracing.com/photogallery/Fiser0804/DSCF0036.JPG
After: http://www.freitasracing.com/photogallery/123008/123008_5.JPG