USAC Racing Forum

General Chat => Point .25 => Topic started by: BQwkR on May 28, 2009, 09:03:34 AM



Title: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: BQwkR on May 28, 2009, 09:03:34 AM
When my family joined our local .25 association, we were impressed with administration, the track and their promised adherence to the USAC rule book concerning rookies. The management of the local club appears to know the complexities of administering little league racing and the track is certainly a fine example of how these folks pulled together to build a first class racing facillity. They welcomed us into the rookie group (they called it giving us a taste), but how come they don't follow the USAC rule book governing procedures to bring rookies along. It's amazing that the track ever got built. Didn't they follow some sort or written plan? Hey people; review 3701.1 thru 9, 3702.1, 3702.3B, 3703.1 and 3705.4. Train my rookie the right way!


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: grandma13 on May 28, 2009, 10:23:57 AM
Welcome to the Quarter Midget Racing group.  Ideally all the "rules" should be followed.  However, many of the clubs are adjusting to the new driving proceedures, race proceedures, equipment needs etc.  The individuals who are training the rookie classes usually are handlers with experience yet that experience was with another organization until late last year and this year.  Thus they are adjusting to the new proceedures and like everything else this takes some time.  Also it may depend on how many rookies there are and how many volunteers there are to work with the young drivers and their handlers.

I would suggest that you address your concerns to the individual who is in charge of the Rookie Program.

I experienced a handler in the pit the last race who ask me for help and told me he had no idea of what to do.  I immediately looked for someone to help and ask them to assist which they did as best as they could given the timing as the cars were ready to go onto the track.

So please do not be afraid to ask for help no one wants you to be stranded.

Best of Luck to you and your driver.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: BQwkR on May 28, 2009, 10:45:09 AM
Hey Granny. Thanks for the quick reply and advice. My gripe is that, as a novice's grandpa, my first concern is for the safety of my grandson and other member's grandkids. If the club would just follow USAC's rules, I could be sure that when my grandson is certified to race by the trainers and the rookie comittee that they followed their scheduled plans and procedures. I would think short of this, USAC is not enforceing rules that develope safe and responsible race car driveing. How could USAC get an insurance carrier to underwrite such an organization who neglect to follow thier own rules?Maybe my club needs some help. I hope it's not a good old boy's club and a self admiration social group.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: grandma13 on May 28, 2009, 11:31:10 AM
I certainly do understand you safety concerns as a grandparent.  I also being a grandmother of a racer and numerous years of ER experience as a RN with the trauma team understand your fear.

I have witnessed many a flip, wall hit, car jump over the rails, or ride the rail, multiple pile up and no major injury have I ever witnessed including some really hard hits my granddaughter took.


 You have no idea of what some of these clubs went through and the members went through to get USAC involved and some of these members are still getting punished for going USAC.  I know of no "good old boy" society within any of these clubs in the midwest they are all out to improve the racing for the kids.  Yes, there are favorite situations such as the chassis they run, the set up they use, and just good old friendship that has developed over the years of their racing quarter midgets.  I can honestly say that none of the USAC members are not concerned over the safety of their children and others.  I have been around these individuals for several years.  I have been in many children sports activities and I sincerely believe this is the best group of people.  But getting volunteers is really tough.

Again I urge you to address your concerns with either the Rookie Program director or one of the club officers.  Then once you feel confortable help out.  I hope you can witness an actual race and just watch when a car becomes disabled.  The other handlers will step in and help out- car will be tipped with the driver in it being held up by other handlers while one or more fix the problem then zip that car back on the track.  Then just watch as cars are gotten ready and some handler needs something off he goes to another handler and borrows whatever he needs and it is willing loaned with no hesitation.

No situation is ever 100% perfect and suggestions to improve it should be well taken.  So speak up!



Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: sfreitas20 on May 28, 2009, 12:29:19 PM
I am just a rookie dad similar to you, but here is my take on it (Sorry this is going to be long):

3701-1: Hopefully your club is teaching the basics to the driver.  The big question I see asked a lot is regarding when to move a driver up.  I can tell you from experience there are weekends my son would be fine to drive in Junior Honda (The USAC District race in Tampa was one of those days), but then there are races where the six year old boy in him comes out in force and it proves to us he isn't ready to move up.  Each driver is different and some can move up faster than others, as a handler you should know when you driver is ready.

3701-2 and 3: I don't know that we even have Regional Directors in USAC.  I am guessing this section is probably a copy and paste that didn't get edited down, or there is a long term plan to have Regional Directors.  Remember USAC has been at this Quarter Midget deal for less than a year...

3701-4 and 5: Hopefully there isn't anyone younger than 5 in your races.  I have seen kids much younger than 4.5 getting lessons at racing schools, which I don't think is a big deal.  It is up to the parent when a kid should start lessons and up to the school how young they want to teach them.  As long as they don't get on the track on a raceday or open practice session until they are 5.

3701-6: We are in USAC and QMA and have never seen a Rookie/Novice logbook or card in either.  I also think this is probably one that may have been copied and pasted into the USAC rulebook, or maybe it is part of the longer term plan.  One huge misconception I have seen with this one is that some think a driver can't be a rookie more than three months after they turn 6.  That is not the case at all and the rule spells it out pretty clearly.  The Rookie/Novice director/committee have to approve them staying in Rookie/Novice every three months after their 6th birthday.  A driver can be a Junior Rookie until their 9th birthday, then they have to move to Sr. Rookie if they are not ready to move out of Rookie class.

3701-7: We have recieved all of these items from both USAC and QMA.

3701-8: We haven't been forced to move yet, but as far as I know the Rookie/Novice Directors agree with our plan for moving our driver up.

3701-9: Again, we haven't seen a logbook or Rookie/Novice card from either sactioning body.

3702-1, 3702-3B: If these things aren't done, then don't let your kid on the track.  Your childs safety is ultimately your responsibility, so do not let the instructor push your kid off in a car if you don't feel they have done enough to make it safe for your child.  I am not saying this is your responsibility as a handler, it is a much higher responsibility than that, it is your parental responsibility!

3703-1, 3705-4: Same as my other comments with Logbook, Regional Directors and Rookie/Novice cards...

Again, I am just another rookie dad and wasn't part of creating the rulebook/rules, so the comments above are just my opinions which are formed from my observations and experiences.  One thing I will add though is that we took it as our responsibility to make sure our driver gets trained correctly.  We asked a lot of questions during his initial lessons and our Rookie trainer is awesome!  Still now when we rent the track we still work on the basics like lining up, restarts, flags...etc on top of working on lines, marks and things like that.  
Another thing we are glad we did when we first got our car, was prepared my son for accidents.  We took the engine out and simulated accidents in the driveway, including flipping the car in every direction possible.  It was important for us to show AJ that even though accidents can be scary, his car would protect him too.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: BQwkR on May 28, 2009, 01:00:32 PM
Hey Scott,

Thanks for your response to this BB gripe. Your opinions are very valuable. So; it seems our group is probably in line with all the others. Our Trainer is also the Flagman at races. He's great. Our training director is very experienced but hard to get a hold of. My grandson has been to several novice/rookie training sessions and has benefitted every time. He's practiced with the other novices on the track and seems to get it. I have personally practiced him nearly 600 laps (fast and slow), taught him how to use his brake, how to form up, switch lanes and have worn out a set of rights. I've asked "what's next?" to our administrator and this person doesn't seem to know. It's not the administrators duty to know, just their responsibility.

This is what I mean; without a planned training schedule, how's anyone know when he's ready. It just becomes ones opinion. With over a dozen rookies to train, I hope someone other than I keeps track of his progress. Even a first grader gets a report card.

Thanks again.



Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: tarpondawg on May 28, 2009, 01:15:20 PM
Totally agree, the responsibility lies with the parent. If your unsure as to what you need to do to make your car safe, or you have Q's send me an e-mail. Freitas, your car is safe. I've seen it up close. Some simple things you can do:
Cover all bars and metal inside the car with padding.
Belts tight!
Keep your kid sitting upright enough that his head is not beyond the jersey bar.
HANS device! Not to protect from a basilar skull fracture, which would be unlikely, but to prevent repetative neck injuries.
Freitas, you may have seen the barrel role Austin had last yr in Lt 160. That was the reason for the HANS!


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: Swartz on May 28, 2009, 01:41:12 PM
You have that exactly backwards. They are required to move out of the novice / rookie class after 3 months and can not stay in the novice / rookie class unless approved. The rookie / novice classes are not competition classes and are only designed for basic instruction.


3701-6: We are in USAC and QMA and have never seen a Rookie/Novice logbook or card in either.  I also think this is probably one that may have been copied and pasted into the USAC rulebook, or maybe it is part of the longer term plan.  One huge misconception I have seen with this one is that some think a driver can't be a rookie more than three months after they turn 6.  That is not the case at all and the rule spells it out pretty clearly.  The Rookie/Novice director/committee have to approve them staying in Rookie/Novice every three months after their 6th birthday.  A driver can be a Junior Rookie until their 9th birthday, then they have to move to Sr. Rookie if they are not ready to move out of Rookie class.



Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: sfreitas20 on May 28, 2009, 02:35:55 PM
BQwkR - I would hope your adimistrators would give you some guidance.  We discussed our plan at length with our son's trainer prior to his first race and made sure they were in agreement that AJ was ready.  However, I turned out AJ wasn't ready for his first race.  In the open practice the day before raceday, AJ had a lapse in focus and came blistering into the hot chute at full speed.  We got warned that if he did that again he would not be allowed to race the following day.  He was great the rest of the day, but after the first heat race he did it again.  He was devastated when he got DQ'd at his first race.  He learned a very good lesson that you can't afford even a momentary lapse in focus while driving a racecar.

TDawg - Thanks for the compliments on our car.  We have said from day one, we will spend money on safety before we spend it on speed.  There have been some pretty wicked accidents.  That is why we are researching a head and neck system right now before we move AJ up out of Rookie.  If I have to decide between a head and neck system and a fresh engine for Junior Honda, we will keep running the engine we have.

Swartz - I appreciate the input, but I don't have it backwards.  There is nothing in either (USAC or QMA) that says drivers are REQUIRED to move up after three months.  The only reference to 3 months is where it says: "drivers 6 years or older will receive Rookie/Novice cards for a period of 3 months.  Extensions of the Rookie Card shall only be granted when written request from the handler has been accepted and signed by at least three members of the Rookie Committee, and approved by the Regional Director. Any Rookie extension letters that are approved should be forwarded to the National Office. Extensions shall be for no more than three months at a time, if needed." - We don't have Regional Directors but I have reviewed this with my track and they have assured me that I understand the rules correctly.  With the proper approvals, there is no requirement to move up at a set time.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: Swartz on May 28, 2009, 03:16:17 PM
Yes, you do.

Sec. 1 PURPOSE
1 The fundamental purpose of the Novice Class is to train new drivers so that they understand the basic racing rules and so that they are able to handle themselves and their cars in a safe manner on the track. It is not intended that the Novice Class be utilized to perfect racing abilities or techniques. Extended competitive racing in the Novice Class once the fundamentals areattained is not to be allowed.

Sec. 6 GRADUATION OF NOVICE DRIVERS
1 The Novice Class is the “learning” class and, as soon as possible the Novice driver shall be moved to the Stock/Honda classes in order to avoid “professional” Novice drivers.

from here:

http://www.quartermidgets.org/documents/Novice_Program/Novice_Rules_and_Procedures.pdf


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: Swartz on May 28, 2009, 03:21:19 PM
And from USAC:

2009 .25 Midget Rookie Program
3701 Rookie Procedures
1. The Rookie Class is to train new drivers to understand basic racing rules and to
be able to handle themselves and cars in a safe manner. The Rookie class is not
for perfecting racing skills, abilities or techniques. Extended competitive racing in
the Rookie Class once the fundamentals are learned is not to be allowed.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: sfreitas20 on May 28, 2009, 03:32:01 PM
Where in there does it say they have to move up after three months?  It doesn't! 

Like I said twice already (right from the USAC rulebook) it says: "drivers 6 years or older will receive Rookie/Novice cards for a period of 3 months.  Extensions of the Rookie Card shall only be granted when written request from the handler has been accepted and signed by at least three members of the Rookie Committee, and approved by the Regional Director. Any Rookie extension letters that are approved should be forwarded to the National Office. Extensions shall be for no more than three months at a time, if needed."

Nothing in there says a drivers is required to move up after three months.  Once again, I have reviewed this with my USAC Track Officials to be sure I understand it correctly and I do.  We currently have an 8 year old in Junior Rookie at our track and he is within the rules.

Have a great day!


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: Swartz on May 28, 2009, 03:43:32 PM
What you don't understand is that you are asking PERMISSION to leave the kid in novice and that if the novice comittee or trainer feels that they are ready to move on they can DENY it. It is not your choice. It has to be signed off by three members and then only if needed, in their opinion.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: sfreitas20 on May 28, 2009, 03:58:21 PM
First, I do get it.  Re-read what I said above, everything I said above says "with approvals" a driver can stay in the Rookie class.  Dictionary.com defines approval as: "formal permission or sanction."  I get it, but it doesn't change the fact that what I said above is right.  There is no hard and fast requirement that a drivers moves up until they turn 9 then they have to move to Senior.

What you don't get is that it absolutely is a parents choice.  If my local track decided my boy was ready and I didn't agree, I would simply go race elsewhere until I feel he is ready.  I could care less what a committee or promoter or sanctioning body says, my child's safety is my responsibilty and if I feel he isn't going to be safe in a competitive class, he isn't moving up.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: Swartz on May 28, 2009, 04:14:07 PM
I would say that if it's your intention to stay in novice long enough to move from jr. novice to sr. novice you should have a backup plan. Perhaps a ball glove.  ;D  Personaly I don't think it's a good idea but you are right. it's youre kid. If there is anything I can do to help, or change your mind, let me know. What track are you guys from anyway?


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: sfreitas20 on May 28, 2009, 04:53:26 PM
No where in my posts do I say that is my plan, but thanks for your concern.  ;D  My driver was almost six when he started out and he will still be 6 when he moves up to Junior Honda.  We have a plan based on what we know at this point, but that may change based on how he is coming along.  The plan is to have him run two full seasons in Junior Honda in 2010 and 2011, but we want him to run some Junior Honda races towards the end of this season to get used to it before running for points in the future.  Midway through next season we will start to figure out whether he goes Senior Honda or into 160s after 2011.  That decision will also be based on how well he is doing with his Bandolero practicing too.

The intent of my original comment was to help a new person understand the rulebook as it is written because a lot of people don't really read and understand it (as you have demonstrated).  :o


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: BQwkR on May 28, 2009, 04:54:06 PM
If you guys think this is bad, try little league football. On one side you have Pop Warner; on the other Junior All American. Both play the same game but age/weight are the primary benchmarks that determine when to move a player from Micro Pee Wee to Junior Pee Wee to Pee Wee to Midget. It doesn't matter if your little future Bret Farve knows what end of the football goes in front; when you reach an age/weight or just a weight you move up. In some cases, you can field a 10 year old inexperienced heavy weight with 13-14 year old experience lite weight.

Both organizations want to promote teamwork, good sportsmanship and the love of the game. But; they compete for local players; and then the Junior High Schools and High School coachs get involved. It's a mess.

Maybe USAC should convene all chapter presidents during-- let say the  Indy event-- and rewrite the .25 rules so that parents understand the game before they lay down their hard to get cash.  


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: goffin20 on May 29, 2009, 01:16:39 AM
The only reference to “3” that I recall is that a driver must race a minimum of “3” novice races before being promoted.

I currently have a 5 year old Rookie driver who has 5 races under his belt and about 5 practice days.  Is he ready to move up?  Well, he knows his flags and obeys them, his line is perfect, he is consistent, stays out of trouble and knows when to let off the gas and use the brakes to avoid trouble.  However, he is not 100% comfortable or 100% into the gas yet.  So no, I do not feel that he is ready to advance and the last thing I want to do is put him in the middle of a bunch of cars flying by and cause wrecks or scare him before he is ready.  When “I” am 100% comfortable that he is 100% ready to advance, he will advance, not a moment sooner.

Brings me to some of my pet peeves.  New handlers that want to move their driver up after the minimum of “3” novice races.  When it takes your driver 1 entire lap to acknowledge a yellow flag and flashing lights before letting off the gas, he is NOT ready to move up.  When your driver runs into the cars in front of them instead of using their brakes, he is not ready to move up.  When your driver does not back off when they don’t have position and instead flat foots it and smashes into other cars, they are not ready to advance.

Don’t get me wrong, the driver doesn’t have to be perfect but you don’t want to advance a novice driver into a field of 10 cars if they are not obeying flags, following rules or not being sensible.  That is just asking for someone to get hurt and tear up a lot of peoples stuff.

And handlers, put your stop watches away, if the driver is still not running a consistent line and zig zagging all over the track, you have other things to worry about and work on than his lap times.  There will be plenty of time to work on his speed later in the game.

And for heavens sake, if a driver cannot handle a 120, don’t move them into a 160, B, A or WF.  Let them master or at least be comfortable in the lower class before promoting them.  That’s like enrolling him in Karate for the first time in his life and move him from white belt to black belt after 3 sessions.  How about starting little Johnny in kid pitch instead of T-Ball at 5 years old?



Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: RBurns17 on May 29, 2009, 04:25:27 AM
Yea, I'm all for leaving kids in novice too long as opposed to not long enough. Better safe than sorry. Mastering the current class isn't enough either. I think that until you can get the kid some good solid practices with the plate he is going to run next, it's going to be a gamble moving them up.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: Swartz on May 29, 2009, 09:19:14 AM
I think this is why I like other sports. Basketball, baseball, soccer, etc. The coach will have my kid play the position he feels will best benifit the team based on his performance and at times will put him in a position to test his skills. I am welcome to sit in the stands and cheer, or in my case rag on the ump, but other than that shut up and watch. My kid gets to play to the best of his ability without being held back by my fears or driven by my expectations. That is all on the coach. Doesnt matter what I "think" the rulebook says. I probably put our kid into Lt. 160 a little early but after that the 120 class was a cake walk. It was worth the grief and made moving into other classes less stressfull. But, I'm probably messed up.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: ANB1 on May 29, 2009, 09:22:11 AM
Rburns, totally agree becuase once you move you can't go back.  The difference from the red to the blue is very big.  We had a group of 4-5 kids who were very close to moving up last year(including my son) and we did 2 novice races for them with the blue plate so they could get used to it in a race environment.  It worked out very well.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: BQwkR on May 29, 2009, 10:20:37 AM
Hey guys, I don't believe in moving little league racers verticle in any direction until they they prove they are ready or warrant being moved.  However, I disagree that it should be the sole judgement of thier parents on when . If our chapters elect or appoint training and safety officers (who are assumed to be well versed in the rules), the head Kahuna should make them do thier jobs according to the current rule book or replace them with individuals who will.

When your little Jimmy Johnson breaks his arm because some little Kyle Bush decides to pass him on the outside and flips him into the infield, how can you tell me the cause of this accident is not partially blamed on those licensed USAC track officials who do not non comply with the reading and the enforcement of the rules. How many parents read the USAC .25 Midget rule book?

The track officials that I've been routed to with these questions have merely given me the QMA/USAC "two step" and went back to thier pits to adjusted thier young one's blistering fast and expensive Decco powered racer. To me, what this bulletin board thread has uncovered is that everyone interprets the  rules differently and some of us arein it for different reasons.People sure know how much the sport is going to cost, gear ratios ,RPM's and what the track records are, but ask them about the rules and do they Jackie Gleason "HUMA HUMA" thing.

As a rookies grand parent, I'm not just that interested in listening to of the complete history of .25 midget racing, the bickering about spec tires, QMA versus USAC and all of the names of NASCAR drivers who got thier start therein. Rules: Let's Follow Them!


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: Swartz on May 29, 2009, 10:40:59 AM
One point that seldom is made is that racing is dangerous. At every level. That is why they make you sign a wavier. However, at this level it is not the drivers I am concerned about the most. They are protected as best can be done at the discretion of the handler. Helmets, roll cage, suits, gloves, the works. The people most at risk are the handlers. Especialy rookie handlers who don't have much time around these things. Some of the most serious injuries I have seen have been to handlers on and off the track.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: RBurns17 on May 29, 2009, 02:41:02 PM
BQ - Thing is Generation Next comes to each track once a year. So it really doesn't have squat to do with USAC rules. Each track tweaks the rules to where they fit that particular track best. I've really never heard someone argue that keeping a kid down in novice is the unsafe decision.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: Swartz on May 29, 2009, 03:10:15 PM
What do you expect a driver to learn in novice besides the basics? How would they ever learn to be competative without competing? I know it's t-ball racing but it is supposed to be racing.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: sfreitas20 on May 29, 2009, 07:56:32 PM
I am just going to agree to disagree with you.  You are never going to see it any other way and neither am I.  I am planning to be at the racetrack with my boy for a long long time, so to me the risks with rushing him through the only leaning class he will ever be in far outweigh the benefits.

Best of luck to you and your driver this season and more.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: RBurns17 on May 29, 2009, 08:58:28 PM
All the drivers in our rookie class race just as hard if not harder than the other classes. Just because everyone gets a trophy doesn't mean they aren't still out there competing for the W every week.


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: nashjr13 on May 30, 2009, 01:56:02 AM
I have to add my opinion.  My son has put in on an average of 500 laps a week(just practice) since August of last year, and he will move up to Junior Honda in August.  My son would not be ready to move to the next level if he didn't get the experience of heat and feature races during that time. Braden wouldn't have gained the experience and confidence in a competitive class,  and he gained confidence, experience, and the ability to drive a quarter midget while in novice. No matter what sport you play the goal is to succeed. We all know T Ball doesn't keep a recorded score, but you can bet the players know the score.  My point is, no matter who is driving in the novice/jr rookie class, every driver is trying to win regardless how many races they have started.

Braden has completed around 1500 laps on the blue plate, and we should get another 1500-2000 laps prior to competing in Junior Honda. We will also race 2 or 3 blue plate transition races with either Sr Rookies(blue plate already) or with other Jr rookies moving up....

Larry


Title: Re: Rules: Let's Follow Them!
Post by: tarpondawg on May 30, 2009, 09:52:31 AM
Nash and freitas,
I have watched your boys race @ the track and they are both close to moving up. Having said that, I think your decisions to leave them in rookie until after the Indy race is the right thing to do. You sure wouldn't want to move them up in that competative situation with out some experience w/the blue plate. Go to Indy and enjoy the experience because come Augest, all things change in Jr H. Bring your heart meds to the track. They will both be ready after Indy and should make for an awsome Jr H class for the second half of the season. Wayne R.